[X] My Assistant

Awesome analysis! Thus in addition to various rounding issues, we now have additional possibilities to look for to make the numbers match exactly. There might be a non-zero sell value as you said.

Also I was thinking and many of the "linear" relationships in this game are actually slightly curved (for example the effect of PABs on stats, the effect of burden, the effect of forging, you name it). The "linear" relationship between condition and bazaar sell cost could also be slightly curved.

So the best way now is to actually fight a weapon down to 1% and test it. I'll do it someday when I have a lot of free time. I guess it won't be too painful as long as your other equipment is good. I feel bad to use my soulfused rapier for it, so I'll have to use a junky legendary rapier. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Legendary Tempestuous Rapier of Slaughter

Found this in my inventory, I suspect I must have bought it at auction. Legendaries wear down faster. While wearing it down I might as well take data points at each condition value to check if truly perfectly linear.

There might be a non-zero sell value as you said.

It's no "might be". I'm sure there is, because I actually saw a couple of items @ 1% condition a couple of years ago.

I just don't know how much it is with respect to the full value. Nor I know if it's something like the same percentage for all items, or there are differences and what kind of.

Continuing...

Part 2: Comparison between Rapier and Shortsword.

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/eaMDi9u.jpg)

Arenas chosen: 80 and 150 rounds
Equipment forge: Rapier Slaughter, Shortsword Slaughter, Shield and Slaughter Set (full forge)
Hath Perk: Dæmon Duality V (no other "game perk" more)
Supportive Spells in continuous use: Regen, Protection, Spirit Shield, Spark of Life, Heartseeker
Deprecating Spell in continuous use: Imperil
Shock Spike Shield
Same IW: Butcher Lv.5 Fatality Lv.4

Although the statistics of the sets are not exactly from the same time I performed the tests, the numbers have not changed significantly.

The test dates are not continuous because in some cases I had to retake the test due to connection problems or inconsistent results (very different from the others).

Links of my equipment can be found in my signature.

[ 1 ] Arena 80 rounds: Legendary Hallowed Rapier of Slaughter

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/ARGQj4r.jpg)

[ 2 ] Arena 80 rounds: Peerless Shocking Shortsword of Slaughter

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/8YQaCfM.jpg)

[ 3 ] Arena 150 rounds: Legendary Hallowed Rapier of Slaughter

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/NLX1sfh.jpg)

[ 4 ] Arena 150 rounds: Peerless Shocking Shortsword of Slaughter

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/KDrT5Cw.jpg)

Simple conclusions:

From the results obtained, I think I can declare a technical draw. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif) On average, the difference was minimal in both number of turns and time. Even though my Rapier is not a Peerless, I still consider him a "near-Peerless". So, I think I can consider that both Rapier and Shortsword are of almost the same level of quality. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

Thinking about the theory, which says that the Bleeding Wound is more efficient the greater the attack power, so I can simplistically deduce that, if I acquire more levels of Dæmon Duality, Shortsword would have some advantage over the Rapier. Well, if I ever get DD9 I will repeat these tests. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

However, it is worth remembering that a Shortsword is only effective if used with Imperil. So, just like for mages, I think using Shortsword is only feasible from level 310, when you get the last level of the Faster Imperil ability. In addition, it is necessary to have a high level of deprecating proficiency, or else to acquire the hath perk Evil Enchantress (and also use Aether Shard). Otherwise, if the application of Imperil is not at all efficient, I suggest using a Rapier. Oh, and if you’re too lazy to use Imperil every round, then your only option is a Rapier. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

The main advantage of a Shortsword is its low cost compared to a Rapier of the same level of quality (I only paid 700k on my Peerless Shortsword (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif) ; a Peerless Rapier would cost many millions (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) ). However, this difference in value has been decreasing over time (lots of supply and low demand; after all, most players switch to the mage style from a certain point).

My opinion: I do not recommend the use of Shortsword for low level players, who in general have little attack power and low deprecating proficiency. For this type of player a Rapier is more efficient because the Penetrated Armor can compensate for the lack of power and the inefficiency in the application of Imperil. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I will post part 3 tomorrow or later.

This post has been edited by Basara Nekki: Nov 21 2020, 01:54

It's no "might be". I'm sure there is, because I actually saw a couple of items @ 1% condition a couple of years ago.

I just don't know how much it is with respect to the full value. Nor I know if it's something like the same percentage for all items, or there are differences and what kind of.

I have an awesome axe at 1% condition. It would bazaar for 102 credits.

-- skip --

My opinion: I do not recommend the use of Shortsword for low level players, who in general have little attack power and low deprecating proficiency. For this type of player a Rapier is more efficient because the Penetrated Armor can compensate for the lack of power and the inefficiency in the application of Imperil. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I will post part 3 tomorrow or later.

I wish to add my opinion : for low level players (say < 200 to 250) Rapier cannot be very efficient, because they generally lack high-block shields. Without a significant block, and the rapier already low damage combined with the low level (medium to low item quality and low scale gain in everything from PABS to prof) ... probably DW + Leather with the highest damage/parry combo you can get (possibly with Slaughter Club to get the stun proc and Nimble off hand) is arguably easier and cheaper to get for them, and more efficient then 1H too. IMHO (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

I have an awesome axe at 1% condition. It would bazaar for 102 credits.

You could sell it to BWS for his test, I'm sure he's willing to pay you 250 C for it (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

This post has been edited by mundomuñeca: Nov 19 2020, 16:32

Thanks for showing me the axe. I don't need to have it, just see it. Its condition should not be changed, as that would require equipping it and waste its level unassigned status.

The most important thing to know is that it is condition 1/203 (1%) and sells for 102 credits. For sure its full crude price is nowhere near 10200 ~ 20400 credits. There is definitely a base value, and someday I'd like to be able to calculate where that 102 came from.

As a wild guess, perhaps the base cost of every equipment is 100 (nice number) and that axe was worth 2 credits in that state? Well, I'll have more data when I get around to whittling down my own equipment.

-------

As for the rapier vs shortsword debate, looks like Basara's test is much more favoring of shortsword than before. His old tests favored rapier, now its equal. With higher deprecating proficiency and DD levels, he would probably reach (or even surpass) decondelite's tests which cautiously suggested that shortsword is better (rather he said they were the same if the adb is the same, roughly).

I wish to add my opinion : for low level players (say < 200 to 250) Rapier cannot be very efficient, because they generally lack high-block shields. Without a significant block, and the rapier already low damage combined with the low level (medium to low item quality and low scale gain in everything from PABS to prof) ... probably DW + Leather with the highest damage/parry combo you can get (possibly with Slaughter Club to get the stun proc and Nimble off hand) is arguably easier and cheaper to get for them, and more efficient then 1H too. IMHO (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Ah yes, at this point you are correct. Dual wielding is the most suitable style for low level players.

My opinion was more directed to those players who are making the transition to the 1H style, and also to those who, like me, have been 1H since the beginning of the journey.

Specifically in my case, I always used 1H Heavy because I was lucky enough to always get good equipment, even though I was low level. Just to give you an idea, before reaching level 300, my set consisted of 6 Legendary (Rapier, Buckler and 4 Plate) and 1 Peerless Plate. I did not have the same luck with light or cloth.

As a wild guess, perhaps the base cost of every equipment is 100 (nice number) and that axe was worth 2 credits in that state? Well, I'll have more data when I get around to whittling down my own equipment.

I doubt it (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

Anyway, if you want to easily and quickly go to 1% condition, the quickest method is simply to equip items you don't care at all. Like the test weapon, with a build all of average plain cotton.

Then you enter a PFUDOR IW or suchlike and get defeated. The condition on all your pieces will instantly go down of 10%, so even if it was 100% at the start, in 10 repeats at most you'll reach 1% on everything.

The only drawback is that you collect data on 10 point of the curve, instead of all of them; but it shouldn't be so important I think.

Specifically in my case, I always used 1H Heavy because I was lucky enough to always get good equipment, even though I was low level. Just to give you an idea, before reaching level 300, my set consisted of 6 Legendary (Rapier, Buckler and 4 Plate) and 1 Peerless Plate. I did not have the same luck with light or cloth.

Hmmm, I see, Advice for lucky players only, I missed that part of the Wiki (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)


This post has been edited by mundomuñeca: Nov 20 2020, 00:53

Hmmm, I see, Advice for lucky players only, I missed that part of the Wiki (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Oh, it's just a small detail. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And finally...

Part 3: Comparison between different Dual Wielding sets.

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/B8pAIz9.jpg)

Arena chosen: 150 rounds
Equipment forge: Shortsword Slaughter, Rapier Balance and Slaughter Set (full forge); Balance, Protection, Warding and Fleet Sets (forge level 25)
Hath Perk: Dæmon Duality V (no other "game perk" more)
Supportive Spells in continuous use: Regen, Protection, Spirit Shield, Spark of Life, Heartseeker, Haste
Deprecating Spell in continuous use: Imperil
Shock Spike Shield
Main Hand: Peerless Shocking Shortsword of Slaughter (Butcher Lv.5 Fatality Lv.4)
Off Hand: Peerless Fiery Rapier of Balance (Fatality Lv.5 Overpower Lv.4)
100% Offhand Strike on hit
Use of Featherweight Shard on both swords and all heavy armor.

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/mvBNVtM.jpg)

Although the statistics of the sets are not exactly from the same time I performed the tests, the numbers have not changed significantly.

The test dates, for the same set, are not continuous because in some cases I had to retake the test due to connection problems or inconsistent results (very different from the others).

Links of my equipment can be found in my signature.

Note: As I was always a player who from the beginning only played in the 1H style, the lack of practice with the DW style should be taken into account when observing the results obtained. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/blush.gif) Therefore, I will probably repeat some of these tests in the future. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

[ 1 ] Fleet Set

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/PQETRIi.jpg)

[ 2 ] Balance Set

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/iDagEpM.jpg)

[ 3 ] Protection Set

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/KIqcHqR.jpg)

[ 4 ] Warding Set

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/edpokKx.jpg)

[ 5 ] Slaughter Set

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/2dsiUgg.jpg)

Simple conclusions:

Despite my lack of practice with the DW style, the results were within what I expected. The most interesting thing was to note that the DW Heavy style is viable, despite being a little unsafe. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

To measure this "unsafeness", I also decided to write down the number of times I needed to use Cure, Full-Cure and Health Potion. Looking at the numbers, we can see that the difference between the Fleet set and the others (Heavy) is very large. It's amazing how Evade (72,4 vs 29,3~31,4) and Resist (78,2 vs 24,6) make a difference in this regard. For someone like me, who has always used the 1H Heavy style, which due to its great defense does not need to heal, the DW Heavy style really is very insecure and needs more attention when playing.

Comparing with the results that I presented in Part 1 ( https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?s=&am...t&p=5799828 ), it was interesting to note that, even without practice in the style and having to heal several times (playing with more attention and less speed), the times obtained were still close, but the amount of turns was lower (the exception was with the Slaughter set).

Balance Set
1H: 4784 turns; 28m49s
DW: 4435 turns; 28m56s

Protection Set
1H: 4880 turns; 29m21s
DW: 4439 turns; 28m13s

Warding Set
1H: 4901 turns; 29m58s
DW: 4408 turns; 28m17s

Slaughter Set
1H: 4017 turns; 24m05s
DW: 4034 turns; 25m43s

I really need to keep practicing, so that the results are more consistent. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

To be continued...

You should repeat the dual-wield tests with the preferable main-hand (club of slaughter), since you have one available and you're only doing DWD tests (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

You should repeat the dual-wield tests with the preferable main-hand (club of slaughter), since you have one available and you're only doing DWD tests (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

I will. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

The point is, when I started doing these tests, I still hadn't done the Club's IW, nor any upgrades. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

I plan to test using different weapon combinations. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

-- skip --

Balance Set
1H: 4784 turns; 28m49s
DW: 4435 turns; 28m56s

Protection Set
1H: 4880 turns; 29m21s
DW: 4439 turns; 28m13s

Warding Set
1H: 4901 turns; 29m58s
DW: 4408 turns; 28m17s

Slaughter Set
1H: 4017 turns; 24m05s
DW: 4034 turns; 25m43s

To be continued...

This is really interesting, thank you. And since the Warding set is the only one all Savage, it seems that the Savage prefix is a bit overrated ... or the Warding suffix is really poor and need to be Savage just to be close to the other non-savage sets (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

You should repeat the dual-wield tests with the preferable main-hand (club of slaughter), since you have one available and you're only doing DWD tests (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

I will. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

The point is, when I started doing these tests, I still hadn't done the Club's IW, nor any upgrades. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

I plan to test using different weapon combinations. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

I think one very interesting combo (with Shades) could be Axe (main hand) + Shortsword ; it wouldn't work very well with Heavy quite probably thou', but have never seen it really discussed, only dismissed.
Who knows ?

Thanks for the hard work, Basara (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This is really interesting, thank you. And since the Warding set is the only one all Savage, it seems that the Savage prefix is a bit overrated ... or the Warding suffix is really poor and need to be Savage just to be close to the other non-savage sets (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Honestly, I'm starting to think it's both. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif) Comparing the tests between Protection and Warding, you can see that even with lower numbers of the Warding set, the performance of the two sets is very similar. In this case I think that the Savage prefix helped (4 Legendary + 1 Peerless) to have a performance equivalent to 5 "non-Savage" Peerless. The issue is not the Warding suffix that is weak. In fact, the equipment has a high ADB, but many other attributes are bad.

To be sure of the degree of importance of Savage prefix, I would have to have the entire Peerless set, but for now I only have one piece. But regardless, I think the Savage prefix is not worth the price they give it. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

I think one very interesting combo (with Shades) could be Axe (main hand) + Shortsword ; it wouldn't work very well with Heavy quite probably thou', but have never seen it really discussed, only dismissed.
Who knows ?

Well, I would have to buy a Peerless Axe first, but at the moment I have no credits left. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) I am saving to buy DD6. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

Thanks for the hard work, Basara (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Thanks!!! (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Has anyone done before a test of 2h + heavy? Probably a little bit unsafe, but maybe shielding or protection sets can pull it off (or a mix of both).

iirc someone was doing something like that but with mithril pieces, but I can't remember who. Can someone refresh my mind? the only thing I remember is that he was a well known veteran from the catgirl club.

I don't play much anymore but after reading all these posts I feel like returning to play more actively

Has anyone done before a test of 2h + heavy? Probably a little bit unsafe, but maybe shielding or protection sets can pull it off (or a mix of both).

iirc someone was doing something like that but with mithril pieces, but I can't remember who. Can someone refresh my mind? the only thing I remember is that he was a well known veteran from the catgirl club.

I don't play much anymore but after reading all these posts I feel like returning to play more actively

It was sickentide who played with the 2H Heavy style. However, I don't remember him posting any more detailed results (just one or another print at the end of an Arena and/or Grindfest).

It was sickentide who played with the 2H Heavy style. However, I don't remember him posting any more detailed results (just one or another print at the end of an Arena and/or Grindfest).

I forget things easily, thanks basara. I hope someday he share his results or resume his efforts in case he stopped his research for some reason. It would be interesting to know more about that particular style.

Another test like: "I did it because I was curious". (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Based on some previous messages posted by BlueWaterSplash, about the relationship between the condition of the equipment and its respective bazaar price, I decided to do a simple check of this.

I spent the last few days using my Peerless Shortsword Slaughter, and I wrote down the condition values (numeric and percentage), and their respective price at the bazaar. As the amount of data is large I will not post the complete table; just a few excerpts later, to exemplify some facts. Graphically, this was the result obtained:

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/ktUtLIO.jpg)

From what can be seen, this confirms what is already on the Wiki, about the degradation of the equipment being a fixed value for each monster killed. As a result, the price at the bazaar also decreases linearly. In fact, I realized that the price variation is even more visible than the value of the equipment degradation, because on some occasions the value of the condition has not changed, but the price has dropped slightly (after I played an arena with few rounds). The image below shows the condition in percentage, the condition in absolute values, and the price at the bazaar.

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/ETBzM4E.jpg)

The initial condition is 800 and the starting price is 5,420 credits.

One thing to be corrected on the Wiki is regarding the minimum condition of the equipment. There is written "0%", but the minimum is "1%", as shown in the following image.

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/HmTeDRW.jpg)

I continued to play, and even suffered a deliberate defeat, but the condition does not become 0.

The minimum price was 632 credits (image below). But I realized that this value did not change after a certain point, even with the continuous degradation of the equipment. For this reason I did not add these points to the chart. The lowest point was that of the first data above that minimum value. But using the equation given by the linear sequence, we can see that the minimum value of 632 credits is reached when the condition of the equipment is 80, that is, 10%. This minimum value, of course, should vary depending on the type and quality level of the equipment.

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/lY9FZDd.jpg)

Another thing I realized was that when I was below 50%, the drop in attribute values was linear (as it says on the Wiki), but it was not continuous like the drop in price (as shown above). Basically, the attribute values fall 1% for every 0.5% reduction in the condition of the equipment.

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/Fjta2kj.jpg)

Finally, one thing that I think is wrong in the Wiki is the formula for equipment repair cost. By the formula we have:

Scraps Needed = 1 + rounddown((100 - condition%) / quality_mod
Scraps Needed = 1 + rounddown((100 - 1) / 1.4
Scraps Needed = 1 + rounddown(70.71)
Scraps Needed = 71

But I only needed 70 to repair the sword:

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/x96YYj9.jpg)

Obviously I (or someone else) would need to check this with other equipment to check the formula's validity.

I forget things easily, thanks basara. I hope someday he share his results or resume his efforts in case he stopped his research for some reason. It would be interesting to know more about that particular style.

oh, i have plans to finalise my research, don't you worry. unfortunately, i am currently roadblocked by two compounding factors: IWs being a bitch on the pieces i need for my research and a lack of free time. the latter factor will be alleviated in may, when i will be done with final exams

here's a brief summary of my findings so far:

mithril helps you survive at lower leves, but as your player and upgrade levels increase, you can swap mithril for savage. this is the goal of my current efforts, which will be followed by a thorough examination of mithril vs. savage

for arenas, longsword and estoc give similar performance. for IW and fest i recommend use of a mace

for mace style, use of Imperil and OFC is a must. for the other two, very little, if anything, is gained over simply powering through in spirit stance

for a balance vs. slaughter comparison, i have all the needed pieces, but IWs...

...

Glad to see you're still working on it and thanks for the brief summary. I'll wait patiently until you finish all your tests and disclose all your findings in detail, I'll make sure to read it with great interest. Oh! And good luck IW'ing all those pieces.

I got a new cookie and silver award, and run a grindfest, but 2020 cookie doesn't seem to give an exp bonus.


Yesterday I had 7 cookies = 140% exp bonus and acquired 5.76b in a GF.

So

base_exp (including goldstar bonus) = 5.76b / 2.4 = 2.4b


As I got an additional cookie and award, I should have gotten 8b exp.

expected_exp_bonus = 8*20% + 75% = 235%
base_exp 2.4b * 3.35 = 8.04b


But I actually got only 7.56b exp.

7.56b / 2.4b = 3.15
current_exp_bonus = 215%


How did the number 215 come out?

7*20% + 75% = 215%


The same case happened in 2018.
2017's cookie bonus was not applied at all through 2018.

https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?s=&am...t&p=5691912