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I just finished IWBTH DwD with 2 mana, 3 spirit left. I came to the conclusion that SV is a waste of mana on 1H unless you're on round 200 of GF.

Gonna try DwD PFUDOR without casting SV tomorrow...

never done DwD, but imo, unless you're doing PF, SV is not that useful for 1H. maybe, it' because i got pretty average block/parry. (42/39%)

for IWBTH, most of the time, Haste, SS, Protection, Regen, Heartseeker is enough for 100+rounds with half of your potions left. you might want SV for the last 10-20rounds for extra safety.

just curious, how does "Orbital Friendship Cannon" works? when you hv all 21 collectables., it automatically unlocks it? and do you actively cast it like any spell & it'll cost 200 mana?

never done DwD, but imo, unless you're doing PF, SV is not that useful for 1H. maybe, it' because i got pretty average block/parry. (42/39%)

for IWBTH, most of the time, Haste, SS, Protection, Regen, Heartseeker is enough for 100+rounds with half of your potions left. you might want SV for the last 10-20rounds for extra safety.

just curious, how does "Orbital Friendship Cannon" works? when you hv all 21 collectables., it automatically unlocks it? and do you actively cast it like any spell & it'll cost 200 mana?

I usually use SV to regulate spirit and mana use on GF and SG run.

OFC costs 200 overcharge and has a 50 turn cooldown, and does about the same damage as Vital Strike, on ALL monsters. Very useful skill to cut down your clear time by half.

My question: does casting the spell on IA to get Channeling for Heartseeker/Regen save any mana in long term? Has anybody done any math on this?

This post has been edited by holy_demon: Mar 8 2014, 06:57

My question: does casting the spell on IA to get Channeling for Heartseeker/Regen save any mana in long term? Has anybody done any math on this?

Well I just did the math myself

Mana Saving: Channelling vs Innate Arcana

big_cost: cost of spell casted on channelling (percentage of base mana, eg. Heartseeker will have a value of 1.0)
small_cost: cost of spell casted to get channelling (eg. Haste will have a value of 0.25)
channel_chance = small_cost/1.2
channel_save = 1.5*big_cost(since you get 1.5 the duration)

channel_total_save = -small_cost + channel_chance*channel_save
= -small_cost + small_cost/1.2 * 1.5*big_cost
= -small_cost + 1.25 * small_cost*big_cost
= small_cost * (1.25*big_cost - 1)

channel_total_save > 0 <=> big_cost > 1/1.25 = 0.8

So you'd only save mana if big_cost > 0.8

Considering that Heartseeker has big_cost value of 1, and Regen a value of 0.75 (at max ability level), only casting Heartseeker will save any mana (0.25*small_cost) of base mana

IA_total_save = small_cost * IA_save (each rank of IA increase IA_save by 0.1)

channel_total_save > IA_total_save <=> small_cost * (1.25*big_cost - 1 - IA_save) > 0
<=> big_cost > (IA_save + 1)/1.25

Since we know that only Heartseeker will save mana, let big_cost = 1, we have this condition
IA_save < 0.25

So casting spell on IA to get channelling for Heartseeker only save mana if IA rank <= 2

Also, if you're trying to get channelling for Heartseeker, don't bother with spirit stance, you'd actually save more mana if your spirit stance is off as mana save scales with mana_cost. Well that's an unexpected conclusion.

Did I make any mistake?

This post has been edited by holy_demon: Mar 8 2014, 07:55

Long story short (just put the actual duration aside for simplicity), you'll also need to consider the alternative i.e. you also get channeling chance when casting heartseeker, so big_cost value for HS is smaller than 1.
Assuming the guy's casting HS in spirit stance and recasting HS when there's channeling, the big_cost would probably be something like
-> 1*0.75/1.2 / 1.5 + 1 - (1*0.75/1.2) / 1
-> 0.4167 + 0.375 ~ 0.79

The term (1*0.75/1.2) corresponds to the chance you get channeling when you cast HS under spirit stance, and then it's divided by the duration of the spell (i.e. 1.5 under channeling, 1 under normal).

If you're a mage....why would you worry about channeling. You should have enough to keep most of the buffs on! (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

This post has been edited by varst: Mar 8 2014, 08:29

Oho, now that's a concrete suggestion. Should the weapon's element be in sync with the Phase or does that matter?

@blueeyedcolossus, do you want to try this set up Colman has suggested? I can lend you a levelled rapier and the Force Shield that dropped a few days ago. I am curious how well this set up will fare against higher difficulty mobs.

Sorry, I think getting to equal stats would take quite some time for me (days) and my melee proficiencies are nonexistent. Thank you for the offer though.

I am hopeful that it will get better at higher levels though.


ALSO: I was still under the impression that once you completed an IW for an item you had to wait 20 hours (lower with training) to do another IW for that item again. I had no idea it had been changed.

@malkatmp you might be right, and I am hoping that when levels get higher it'll get better. It's just that my old staff used to have a few levels of mana conservation, which my new one doesn't and I would like to get that. (Sadly I only got 2x crit damage instead - I'm not sure if I should keep that eventually or if it's not that good of a mod.)

Oho, now that's a concrete suggestion. Should the weapon's element be in sync with the Phase or does that matter?

@blueeyedcolossus, do you want to try this set up Colman has suggested? I can lend you a levelled rapier and the Force Shield that dropped a few days ago. I am curious how well this set up will fare against higher difficulty mobs.

Sorry, I think getting to equal stats would take quite some time for me (days) and my melee proficiencies are nonexistent. Thank you for the offer though.

I am hopeful that it will get better at higher levels though.


ALSO: I was still under the impression that once you completed an IW for an item you had to wait 20 hours (lower with training) to do another IW for that item again. I had no idea it had been changed.

@malkatmp you might be right, and I am hoping that when levels get higher it'll get better. It's just that my old staff used to have a few levels of mana conservation, which my new one doesn't and I would like to get that. (Sadly I only got 2x crit damage instead - I'm not sure if I should keep that eventually or if it's not that good of a mod.)

15 3 Regen restores 698 points of health.
15 2 Fiery Blast hits In Memory Of Dark Mages Mk2s for 3325 fire damage
15 1 You cast Fiery Blast.

14 3 In Memory Of Dark Mages Mk2s hits you for 848 crushing damage.
14 2 Fiery Blast hits In Memory Of Dark Mages Mk2s for 3087 fire damage
14 1 You cast Fiery Blast.

13 6 The effect Coalesced Mana on In Memory Of Dark Mages Mk2s has expired.
13 5 Regen restores 698 points of health.
13 4 In Memory Of Dark Mages Mk2s hits you for 831 crushing damage.
13 3 In Memory Of Dark Mages Mk2s gains the effect Searing Skin.
13 2 Fiery Blast blasts In Memory Of Dark Mages Mk2s for 5866 fire damage
13 1 You cast Fiery Blast.

12 3 In Memory Of Dark Mages Mk2s hits you for 815 crushing damage.
12 2 In Memory Of Dark Mages Mk2s evades your spell.
12 1 You cast Fiery Blast.

11 4 Regen restores 698 points of health.
11 3 In Memory Of Dark Mages Mk2s gains the effect Searing Skin.
11 2 Fiery Blast blasts In Memory Of Dark Mages Mk2s for 4399 fire damage
11 1 You cast Fiery Blast.

10 6 Cooldown expired for Cure
10 5 In Memory Of Dark Mages Mk2s hits you for 880 crushing damage.
10 4 Fiery Blast hits In Memory Of Dark Mages Mk2s for 1529 fire damage (50% resisted)
10 3 Bottle Fairy has been defeated.
10 2 Fiery Blast hits Bottle Fairy for 4982 fire damage
10 1 You cast Fiery Blast.

9 7 Regen restores 698 points of health.
9 6 In Memory Of Dark Mages Mk2s hits you for 798 crushing damage.
9 5 Bottle Fairy hits you for 424 piercing damage.
9 4 Fiery Blast hits In Memory Of Dark Mages Mk2s for 2850 fire damage
9 3 Bottle Fairy gains the effect Coalesced Mana.
9 2 Fiery Blast hits Bottle Fairy for 4028 fire damage
9 1 You cast Fiery Blast.

This is on Hell at the start of an arena.

@blueeyedcolossus,

What's your buff/debuff sequence and do you have all of your abilities slotted and maximized to your level? You mentioned before your HP is about 8200, I assume this is due to the lack of PAB's in the typical mage equipments other than Intelligence and Wisdom.

I'd like to see your stats and your equipment, if you don't mind - I am trying to see how much frustrations I will need to put up with if I should decide to try maging.(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Long story short (just put the actual duration aside for simplicity), you'll also need to consider the alternative i.e. you also get channeling chance when casting heartseeker, so big_cost value for HS is smaller than 1.
Assuming the guy's casting HS in spirit stance and recasting HS when there's channeling, the big_cost would probably be something like
-> 1*0.75/1.2 / 1.5 + 1 - (1*0.75/1.2) / 1
-> 0.4167 + 0.375 ~ 0.79

You make a good point, but think there's something wrong with your formula: if I replace 1*0.75 with 1 (ie. casting HS without spirit stance)

big_cost becomes 1/1.2 / 1.5 + 1 - (1/1.2) = ~0.7222 (lower than casting in spirit stance)

The formula should be something like this:

raw_cost * (raw_cost / 1.2 / (1.5) + (1 - raw_cost/ 1.2) / 1 )

so with no stance: 0.7222, with spiritstance: 0.593. (though I'm pretty sure 1.5 should become 2 if you're using spirit stance, but the problem is already complicated enough)

(what's you're using is raw_cost / 1.2 / (1.5) + 1 - (raw_cost / 1.2) - we need to apply raw_cost on the whole sum to determine the cost, the raw_cost inside is just for channeling probability)

Now that real cost (affected by channelling) turns out to be much lower than what it is, we have an even bigger problem, does IA even save any mana at all?

EDIT: my formula was wrong as well, now fixed (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

EDIT2: with corrected formula, haste on IA does save more mana than casting haste and recasting haste if channeled. I have no idea if it saves more mana than casting haste and casting HS if channeled, which is my original question in the first place (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

This post has been edited by holy_demon: Mar 8 2014, 10:13

I cast spells in IA slots only when I have an exceed amount of mana (gem drops, potion overflowing). If I don't cast anything, I lose mana for sure anyway so I just do and don't look back. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

This post has been edited by Kagoromo: Mar 8 2014, 10:05

You make a good point, but think there's something wrong with your formula: if I replace 1*0.75 with 1 (ie. casting HS without spirit stance)

big_cost becomes 1/1.2 / 1.5 + 1 - (1/1.2) = ~0.7222 (lower than casting in spirit stance)

The formula should be something like this:

raw_cost * (raw_cost / 1.2 / (1.5) + (1 - raw_cost/ 1.2) / 1 )

so with no stance: 0.7222, with spiritstance: 0.593. (though I'm pretty sure 1.5 should become 2 if you're using spirit stance, but the problem is already complicated enough)

(what's you're using is raw_cost / 1.2 / (1.5) + 1 - (raw_cost / 1.2) - we need to apply raw_cost on the whole sum to determine the cost, the cost inside is just for probability)

Now that real cost (affected by channelling) turns out to be much lower than what it is, we have an even bigger problem, does IA even save any mana at all?

EDIT: my formula was wrong as well, now fixed (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) With the corrected

EDIT2: with corrected formula, haste on IA does save more mana than casting haste and recasting haste if channeled. I have no idea if it saves more mana than casting haste and casting HS if channeled, which is my original question in the first place (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

The correct formula should be
-> (1*0.75/1.2) / 1.5 + (1 - (1*0.75/1.2)) / 1

I forgot to apply the brackets correctly. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
It's assuming the calculation's based on unit MP/turn, normalized for HS so it corresponds to the 'big_cost' in your formula. Since you assume normalized big_cost of 1, I also use the same cost there so the raw_cost is not needed.

This shows that if you cast HS in spirit stance then recast HS if there's channeling, in the long run the average cost will be ~79% of the full cost, so it would be the same as casting haste and casting HS if channeled.
You also need to consider if HS is essential i.e. what you'll do if you don't get channeling from haste or get that prematurely. HS -> HS utilize almost 100% of the duration of HS while the small -> HS method may leave gaps or overlaps.

Yea, there's more factors that needs to be considered (duration, overlap/gap, other spells, gems, etc) if you want to be serious.

This post has been edited by varst: Mar 8 2014, 10:21

I just finished IWBTH DwD with 2 mana, 3 spirit left. I came to the conclusion that SV is a waste of mana on 1H unless you're on round 200 of GF.

Gonna try DwD PFUDOR without casting SV tomorrow...

From my experience, SV is a waste of mana for 1H Heavy even on PFUDORfest.

The correct formula should be
-> (1*0.75/1.2) / 1.5 + (1 - (1*0.75/1.2)) / 1

I forgot to apply the brackets correctly. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
It's assuming the calculation's based on unit MP/turn, normalized for HS so it corresponds to the 'big_cost' in your formula. Since you assume normalized big_cost of 1, I also use the same cost there so the raw_cost is not needed.

But the normalized raw_cost for spirit stanced HS is 0.75, not 1. You're applying spirit stanced HS's chance of channel, but you apply the cost of non-spirit stanced HS.

It should be: 0.75 * (0.75/1.2/1.5 + (1 - 0.75/1.2)/1) = 0.59

with no spirit stance: 1 * (1/1.2/1.5 + (1- 1/1.2) / 1) = 0.72

Also the unit of raw_cost/big_cost is spent MP/base MP, not MP/turn (we're ignoring duration)

This shows that if you cast HS in spirit stance then recast HS if there's channeling, in the long run the average cost will be ~79% of the full cost, so it would be the same as casting haste and casting HS if channeled.

You only spend 75% of the full cost to cast in spirit stance, but you ended up spending more (79%) on average? Like I pointed out before, your formula is wrong

Yea, there's more factors that needs to be considered (duration, overlap/gap, other spells, gems, etc) if you want to be serious.

I'm assuming at the beginning of the run, so most of those factors are negligible.

This post has been edited by holy_demon: Mar 8 2014, 10:48

as long as we're on the subject of maths, anyone remember how to figure out much PXP it would take to max a weapon that already has levels on it?
i remember the formula being in a few IW shops, but they're all retired now.

http://ehwiki.org/wiki/Item_World#Formula_for_PXP

i'm pretty sure it was something like [(total PXP needed - PXP(x)]

From my experience, SV is a waste of mana for 1H Heavy even on PFUDORfest.

I notice that spirit is drained faster without SV. So not completely useless (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

I guess if one has enough HP to survive any kind of Spirit attack from monsters, SV is unnecessary indeed. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I usually use SV to regulate spirit and mana use on GF and SG run.

OFC costs 200 overcharge and has a 50 turn cooldown, and does about the same damage as Vital Strike, on ALL monsters. Very useful skill to cut down your clear time by half.

by Half (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

i guess i'll have to start saving up for 21 figurines (21 * 65k = 1365k). (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/faint.gif)

My question: does casting the spell on IA to get Channeling for Heartseeker/Regen save any mana in long term? Has anybody done any math on this?

imo, it's too much hassle for too little gain. i'd rather not pay that much attention to min-max everything and finish watching my movie backlog. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

This post has been edited by malkatmp: Mar 8 2014, 11:09

by Half (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

Well that's idealistic talk, more like 20-40% (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

imo, it's too much hassle for too little gain. i'd rather not pay that much attention to min-max everything and finish watching my movie backlog. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

They are important when you're running long runs like SG or GF.

This post has been edited by holy_demon: Mar 8 2014, 11:18

But the normalized raw_cost for spirit stanced HS is 0.75, not 1. You're applying spirit stanced HS's chance of channel, but you apply the cost of non-spirit stanced HS.

It should be: 0.75 * (0.75/1.2/1.5 + (1 - 0.75/1.2)/1) = 0.59

with no spirit stance: 1 * (1/1.2/1.5 + (1- 1/1.2) / 1) = 0.72

Also the unit of raw_cost/big_cost is spent MP/base MP, not MP/turn (we're ignoring duration)
You only spend 75% of the full cost to cast in spirit stance, but you ended up spending more (79%) on average? Like I pointed out before, your formula is wrong
I'm assuming at the beginning of the run, so most of those factors are negligible.

Well....yeah, mine seems to be calculating the HS cost before spirit stance, so it should be 0.59. And the unit I'm talking about is the big_cost, not raw_cost/big_cost. Both got duration so it's reduced.
But then it's still saving more than casting small spells first.

And....you said it's in the long run, not the beginning of the run, so I mentioned those factors. Which one do you want? Make up your mind! (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
More interesting thing: if the calculation gives 'save mana if big_cost > 0.8', then why not hit a few times till you get 100 OC, enter SS, then cast the big spells? Because the cost will then be lower than 0.8 (somewhere between 0.75 and 0.59)! (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

This post has been edited by varst: Mar 8 2014, 11:23

If you dual wield you can kill every monster in one hit. Just piano the keys and hope you get 4 turns per second the entire time.

woot (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

sensei teach me. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Well....yeah, mine seems to be calculating the HS cost before spirit stance, so it should be 0.59. And the unit I'm talking about is the big_cost, not raw_cost/big_cost. Both got duration so it's reduced.
But then it's still saving more than casting small spells first.

When I typed raw_cost/big_cost, I meant raw_cost and big_cost, so yeah, the unit of raw_cost should be spent MP/base MP (basically the value given on the wiki page). There's no duration implied.

And....you said it's in the long run, not the beginning of the run, so I mentioned those factors. Which one do you want? Make up your mind! (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Since the problem is getting complicated, let's start with an ideal situation. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

times till you get 100 OC, enter SS, then cast the big spells? Because the cost will then be lower than 0.8 (somewhere between 0.75 and 0.59)! (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

At the moment, I'm not even sure if those 2 values 0.59 or 0.75 are even correct. I'm trying to make a formula for a derived_cost calculated from raw_cost (gotten from wiki) and it's going into recursive zone (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

Also, keep in mind that small_cost should be treated with the same formula as big_cost, and the whole thing becomes a huge mindfuckfest

This post has been edited by holy_demon: Mar 8 2014, 11:44