[X] My Assistant

Varst explained it, I'll try my best to clarify.

What I use to evaluate upgrades:

Base damage = (INT * 1.25) + (WIS *0.75) + (Staff Prof * 0.5) + (Title rank) + (Equip MDB)

Bonus damage = (1.5 if crit) * (1.5 if channelled) * (1 + Arcane Focus + Riddlemaster) * ( 1 + StaminaBonus) * (1 + HathPerk) * (1 + EDB) * (1 + proficiency/200)

Final damage = Base damage * Bonus damage * (2 if primary AOE target) * (1 + (SpellAbilityPoints - 1)*0.0625) * ElemResist - ElemAbsorb

The bonus damage formula is multiplicative, so assuming equal values (eg: 1 EDB = 2 prof) boosting the smaller variables by the same amount will result in a greater final value. Because at higher levels you already have natural elemental/divine/forbidden proficiency, this mean boosting EDB will have a greater effect until it is greater than your proficiency. (Edit: This was also why MDM was so good before. But at least now we know how INT/WIS factors into the equation.)

eg:
300 elemental prof, 100 EDB = boosting EDB more advantageous
300 elemental prof, 150 EDB = EDB / prof even
300 elemental prof, 200 EDB = boosting prof more advantageous

Edit: ninja'd XD

This post has been edited by Ballistic9: Dec 28 2011, 16:24

Katalox and ebony serve different purposes; one isn't better than the other. If you are set up to use elemental magic, you will want to use an ebony staff because it provides bonuses to the appropriate proficiencies and EDB. Likewise, if you use holy/dark magic, you will want to use a katalox staff for the same reason.

Holy/dark magic is nice because they are complementary and the base resistances of custom mobs are set up such that when an enemy type is resistant to one, it's typically weak or neutral to the other. Moreover, their status effects are really nice, with Breached Defense making enemies take more damage and Blunted Attack being like a mini-Weaken on everything, the latter of which sticks to every target when applied with Ragnarok. The downside is that holy/dark spells eat through your MP very quickly.

Personally, I still like elemental spells, but the drawback is that it's very possible that you'll run into groups of enemies that are largely resistant to your EDB-backed element of choice, leaving you with no option but to use spells that will do less damage (though this might not be an issue if you have high end phase?). Furthermore, once you get into the schoolgirl runs, you'll be at a disadvantage since three of the four schoolgirls are resistant to elemental magic.

Ebony/Katalox have different purposes, you'll need both types. Most high level mages have 1 holy set, 1 dark set and at least 1 elemental set.

Thanks guys, it's much more clear now.

What I'm really curious about though it's mages APs management. I mean, I understand everyone sorta develops his own style, but is there any guideline for starters?

I think it's pretty much granted that one wants to spends points on best possible tier for his spells of choice, but with spells oneshotting things on lower difficulty settings (I guess at least, according to some posts that can happen on IWTBH too lol), should one still use points in lower tier spells?

Is it also uncommon to have more than a single elemental combo? Or, say, it's everyone choice to go dark/holy plus a couple more elements just to cover every possible scenario?

I said that because
and profs... I thought they do more than just dmg at half rate, but I guess that's melee only (damn them! I hate how melee in light are almost equal to mages as far as supportive goes - that's so... counterintuitive). Though ditto on "The damage caused by Status Effects" and what's the ratio compared to increase from MDB and EDB.

Anyway, I asked because I had Superior Oak Staff of Heimdall drop, and after calcing it, I decided even if I go holy, there's no way it give me more than my crappy Ex Redwood of Dest some1 had thrown to bazaar for less than 500 cr.

If the melee has low interference and you have no supportive bonus, then yes, you will be equal in skills for buffs.
Not very counter-intuitive really, since buffs is the magic that melees specialize in.
But get a bit of supportive bonus and you'll outdo them.

Also, here is kicker for oak staffs and katalox. Heals are holy damage.
So your oak staff of heimdall will make your Regen II all the more effective.



I have a question for more experienced mages tho, about the tiers on spells.
Basing it on elemental spells makes it easy to find the basic tiers. They are simply T1, T2 and T3, in the order which they appear and they all cost the same compared to each other.
But how are they in damage to each other?
A T2 spells about twice as much as a T1 spell, but does it do twice the damage?
and a T3 spell costs about three times as much a T1, but again, does it do three times the damage?
So is the damage per mana the lesser, greater or the same, when you go to a higher tier spell.

And more importantly, Holy and Dark spells seems to lack a T1. And the holy got 2 tiers which are in cost equivalent to T2 and T3 elemental spells, but are the equivalent in damage? Or do the first holy spell do the same damage as a T1 elemental spell but have the cost of a T2 one?
And Dark spells are even tricker, they seem to start at T3 and then adds a T4. Does it do more damage, or is it just costlier without any other benefit than that it does dark damage?


And for that matter, where do soul spells factor into it?
The lower one is slightly cheaper than a T3 elemental spell, and the higher one has a cost equivalent to a theoretical T5, but does it do damage as one?

Thanks guys, it's much more clear now.

What I'm really curious about though it's mages APs management. I mean, I understand everyone sorta develops his own style, but is there any guideline for starters?

I think it's pretty much granted that one wants to spends points on best possible tier for his spells of choice, but with spells oneshotting things on lower difficulty settings (I guess at least, according to some posts that can happen on IWTBH too lol), should one still use points in lower tier spells?

Is it also uncommon to have more than a single elemental combo? Or, say, it's everyone choice to go dark/holy plus a couple more elements just to cover every possible scenario?

OC is really freaking expensive.
So while mages have to stretch their AP at lower levels, when the ability tiers come often, at higher levels this is less of a problem
After all, OC for a tier costs 5 AP, single target spell + full AoE costs 6 AP.
Meaning the cost for every single spell in the game is only 18 AP more than having full OC boost.

Cut just 3 spells out, and the cost is the same.

Personally, I'm having more trouble with not enough space on my quickbar (and bonus quickbar) than not having enough AP to put into spells.

@Ballistic9

I'm seriously thinking if I should do some test to see if base damage works as intended in your formula.
I still can't find any good way to test that, however.

So for quick and dirty estimation of staff with more MDB without EDB or prof vs 1 with them, I need to take my magical attack base, divide by 100, then multiply by EDB/ half Prof on 2nd, and tack that onto 2nd staff MDB?

Please do not laugh, I'm so mathematically challenged, average dinosaur could outcount me (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/anime_cry.gif)

So the magic damage bonus from staffs don't really count that much, although more gives a higher base since it all comes from there.
+10 in magic damage on a staff isn't that big of a deal, but it applies equally to all damage spells, making it universally useful.

Haven't done the calculations for lower levels, but at higher levels MDB is king (higher multipliers).

Redwood seems to have a higher MDB, and does give a bonus to all proficiencies, somewhat making up for a lack of specific EDB.
Essentially making it a universal staff, adaptable to the circumstance.

Redwood's what you use until you can find a decent ebony, IMO. The extra proficiencies don't make up for the damage loss from EDB.

While Oak staffs are better for holy spells than katalox in general, willow seems to hold no advantage over a katalox. And it doesn't make any sense that it gives a bonus in elemental proficiency.

Oaks are cheaper than Kataloxes, but a Heimdall Katalox will do more dark/soul damage than the Oak (better for general arena/Konata). Destruction Willows don't match up to Fenrir Kataloxes either but they're cheaper.

What I'm really curious about though it's mages APs management. I mean, I understand everyone sorta develops his own style, but is there any guideline for starters?

Dunno, since resist APs are mostly useless you should be able to just get everything.

I think it's pretty much granted that one wants to spends points on best possible tier for his spells of choice, but with spells oneshotting things on lower difficulty settings (I guess at least, according to some posts that can happen on IWTBH too lol), should one still use points in lower tier spells?

Gotta read the context though. Using Ragnarok to primary target a squishy angel mob on IWBTH will utterly destroy it, but you won't fare as well against a giant, say (unless you channel crit (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cool2.gif) ).

Also, here is kicker for oak staffs and katalox. Heals are holy damage.
So your oak staff of heimdall will make your Regen II all the more effective.

Just to clarify: holy EDB doesn't buff Regen, only curative proficiency. Buffs Cure though.

I have a question for more experienced mages tho, about the tiers on spells.
Basing it on elemental spells makes it easy to find the basic tiers. They are simply T1, T2 and T3, in the order which they appear and they all cost the same compared to each other.
But how are they in damage to each other?

Only Tenb knows. Too many mobs with varying stats/resistances for it to be worth trying to figure out (with the exception of legendary arenas).

And for that matter, where do soul spells factor into it?
The lower one is slightly cheaper than a T3 elemental spell, and the higher one has a cost equivalent to a theoretical T5, but does it do damage as one?

Soul Reaper/Harvest is crap and only useful to recharge Spirit.
Soul Burst does insane damage but only if the enemy has Burning Soul active (for which you need Soul Fire).

So for quick and dirty estimation of staff with more MDB without EDB or prof vs 1 with them, I need to take my magical attack base, divide by 100, then multiply by EDB/ half Prof on 2nd, and tack that onto 2nd staff MDB?

Please do not laugh, I'm so mathematically challenged, average dinosaur could outcount me (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/anime_cry.gif)

Nah, it doesn't work like that, and I don't think Randommember's correct on that ratio.

How about some qualitative method: pick staff in the following order: MDB, EDB, prof.
As far as I know it can already solve 99% of your problems.

So for quick and dirty estimation of staff with more MDB without EDB or prof vs 1 with them, I need to take my magical attack base, divide by 100, then multiply by EDB/ half Prof on 2nd, and tack that onto 2nd staff MDB?

Please do not laugh, I'm so mathematically challenged, average dinosaur could outcount me (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/anime_cry.gif)

Make a spreadsheet. Seriously. It's the only way ><

Then I'm utterly lost.

Let's start at the beginning.

@EHwiki, formula is:

magic_dmg = (1 + Magic attack damage) * (1 + EDB? / 100 ) * (1 +Prof / 200 )
* (1 + boost_bonus) * (1 + hath_bonus) * stamina_damage_factor

So it is wrong? If 1 goes by it, then at any lvl 1MDB=1EDB. And that's not the case, from all above data.

This post has been edited by Valheran: Dec 28 2011, 16:31

sorry i have a strange question

EDB : INT

with damage, 1 EDB equals how many INT do the same ?

like this situation two gloves

Holy Damage Bonus: 23.1
INT: 11.23

Holy Damage Bonus: 24.81
INT: 4.04

i am using the first one , i feel may be int do more damage but not sure T_T

If im using 2h weapon - what stats and armour type should i go for?

If im using 2h weapon - what stats and armour type should i go for?

Armor wise, it's either Heavy or Light.
Imho, go for the first only if you're really having trouble handling mobs and find youself oneshotted several times. Power armor is arguably the only choice here: you want to hit hard, or monster will simply be all over you with their spells.
Otherwise Light seems to have a little edge over heavy: Kevlar is great because gives you nice mitigations (basically same if not higher than Power armor, of course lower than Plate+Protection sets) and you still get some decent evade. If you're comfortable with monsters hitting hard, Shade (Fleet, or the rarer Shadowdancer) is great with its offensive and evade bonus.

As far as stats go, you need basically everything which is not INT - it's pretty much useless on a melee, so you can keep it kinda low (something about 1/3, or even 1/4 of the other stats). Other stats, I tend to have them equally leveled, though I'd rather boost survivability (Endurance, Wisdom) on a lower level character.

Hrm, well here's a spreadsheet if you want to play around with it (usual disclaimers apply):

[attachmentid=10760]

[attachmentid=10759]

This post has been edited by Ballistic9: Dec 28 2011, 17:44

Armor wise, it's either Heavy or Light.
Imho, go for the first only if you're really having trouble handling mobs and find youself oneshotted several times. Power armor is arguably the only choice here: you want to hit hard, or monster will simply be all over you with their spells.
Otherwise Light seems to have a little edge over heavy: Kevlar is great because gives you nice mitigations (basically same if not higher than Power armor, of course lower than Plate+Protection sets) and you still get some decent evade. If you're comfortable with monsters hitting hard, Shade (Fleet, or the rarer Shadowdancer) is great with its offensive and evade bonus.

As far as stats go, you need basically everything which is not INT - it's pretty much useless on a melee, so you can keep it kinda low (something about 1/3, or even 1/4 of the other stats). Other stats, I tend to have them equally leveled, though I'd rather boost survivability (Endurance, Wisdom) on a lower level character.

Cool thanks for the tip (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) atm im using DW + heavy armour because well...its the items ive found so far, but i will start switching my gear to light and find a 2h weapon...

kind of disappointed to read that mages seem to be the only end game class atm

Base damage = (INT * 1.25) + (WIS *0.75) + (Staff Prof * 0.5) + (Title rank) + (Equip MDB)

Bonus damage = (1.5 if crit) * (1.5 if channelled) * (1 + Arcane Focus + Riddlemaster) * ( 1 + StaminaBonus) * (1 + HathPerk) * (1 + EDB) * (1 + proficiency/200)

Final damage = Base damage * Bonus damage * (2 if primary AOE target) * (1 + (SpellAbilityPoints - 1)*0.0625) * ElemResist - ElemAbsorb

Could these formulas be used to assign a score to each staff?
I was thinking something like:

CODE

Elemental Score = (INT*1.25 + WIS *0.75 + MDB) * (1 + EDB/100) * (1 + prof/200)

Example: Legendary Ebony Staff of Mjolnir

CODE

Elec Score (scaled to my level) → (15.77*1.25 + 7.87*0.75 + 326.60) * (1 + 52.87/100) * (1 + 42.06/200) = 652

However, this one gives:

CODE

Elec Score → (13.51*1.25 + 7.55*0.75 + 497.09) * (1 + 13.09/100) * (1 + 38.69/200) = 701

I'm fairly sure I would wreak more havoc with the Legendary stick, so something's wrong.
Any ideas?

I'm fairly sure I would wreak more havoc with the Legendary stick, so something's wrong.
Any ideas?

Count your INT/WIS/prof. in and try again?
Cross terms can have huge impact.

I tried putting INT=WIS=300, staff prof.=200, Elem prof. = 278, and it yields something like
Mjolnir staff = 4182
Destruction staff = 3563

which indicates that mjolnir staff MAY be better when casting elec spells.

This post has been edited by varst: Dec 28 2011, 19:39

Wait, would that work? Because it's like Ballistic mentioned in the top post the value of EDB vs 2prof varies according to the current balance between them.

Even MDM would be part of the balance. Like in this example the Destruct staff gives more elec damage on its own but considering your existing base MDM that the legendary can feed off of (amplify further), the mjol might be a tough competitor/surpass the destruct staff.

e: ninja-ed by varst (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

This post has been edited by dcherry: Dec 28 2011, 19:42

I tried putting INT=WIS=300, staff prof.=200, Elem prof. = 278, and it yields something like
Mjolnir staff = 4182
Destruction staff = 3563

Wait, would that work? Because it's like Ballistic mentioned in the top post the value of EDB vs 2prof varies according to the current balance between them.

Wouldn't it be necessary to count in the EDB bonus from other equipment (ie, Phase) as well then?
I was half-thinking of making a script to calculate scores automatically, but if it's so much tied to your current equipment it would be useless.