[X] My Assistant

Could someone explain to me deal with oak and willow staves? Looking ar EHWiki equipment ranges, it seems there are set to have much less MDB than others, without much in a way of compensation. Is there a point other than making good staves drop less frequently?

On somewhat related note, from generic mage formula, it seems for calculating dmg 1MDB=1EDB=2Prof. That would mean 1MDB>2Prof>1EDB. But from comments here it seems to me there is something to EDB I'm missing...

Could someone explain to me deal with oak and willow staves? Looking ar EHWiki equipment ranges, it seems there are set to have much less MDB than others, without much in a way of compensation. Is there a point other than making good staves drop less frequently?

On somewhat related note, from generic mage formula, it seems for calculating dmg 1MDB=1EDB=2Prof. That would mean 1MDB>2Prof>1EDB. But from comments here it seems to me there is something to EDB I'm missing...

For oak staff, just keep heimdalls with insanely high holy EDB and good MDB.
You can throw other oak and willow staffs away at this moment, since there's no particular use for them.

I can't get why 1MDB=1EDB=2Prof would become 1MDB>2Prof>1EDB, but anyway...
when you progress in levels, you'll have more natural prof. from your character. It will produce a cross-term effect which makes EDB and MDB far superior at higher levels.

As for comparison between EDB and MDB... I don't know.
I'm not sure whether MDB still works as before or not. The only thing I could say is that MDB staffs (destruction) are more valuable than EDB staffs because they can boost every spells you're using instead of one specific spells.

Since we're at it, I'll ask too since I don't know much about staves:

From the wiki Willows seem to be utterly useless (low damage, no elemental bonus and even weaker dark damage, only 3 proficiencies) or something like that, is that right?

Redwood too doesn't seem that great, but at least it has every proficiency.

Oak I guess can help with FSM and schoolgirl marathons...

Katalox seems to be the best, but I've never actually dropped one (that might explain it lol) :V

Can Ebony rival Katalox for elemental mages? Bonus wise it seems so, but I don't know if the Holy/Dark combo is just way better than elemental (if it was me I'd just go with Wind for Giants+Dragonkin lol)...

Katalox and ebony serve different purposes; one isn't better than the other. If you are set up to use elemental magic, you will want to use an ebony staff because it provides bonuses to the appropriate proficiencies and EDB. Likewise, if you use holy/dark magic, you will want to use a katalox staff for the same reason.

Holy/dark magic is nice because they are complementary and the base resistances of custom mobs are set up such that when an enemy type is resistant to one, it's typically weak or neutral to the other. Moreover, their status effects are really nice, with Breached Defense making enemies take more damage and Blunted Attack being like a mini-Weaken on everything, the latter of which sticks to every target when applied with Ragnarok. The downside is that holy/dark spells eat through your MP very quickly.

Personally, I still like elemental spells, but the drawback is that it's very possible that you'll run into groups of enemies that are largely resistant to your EDB-backed element of choice, leaving you with no option but to use spells that will do less damage (though this might not be an issue if you have high end phase?). Furthermore, once you get into the schoolgirl runs, you'll be at a disadvantage since three of the four schoolgirls are resistant to elemental magic.

Ebony/Katalox have different purposes, you'll need both types. Most high level mages have 1 holy set, 1 dark set and at least 1 elemental set.

Ebony = fire/elec/cold/wind, for low difficulties (GF/CF/IW), ie: cheap T1+2 AOE spell cost. Common drop rate.
Katalox = holy/dark, for high difficulties (arena/ROB). Very low drop rate.

On somewhat related note, from generic mage formula, it seems for calculating dmg 1MDB=1EDB=2Prof. That would mean 1MDB>2Prof>1EDB. But from comments here it seems to me there is something to EDB I'm missing...

It used to be 1 MDM (not MDB) > 1 EDB > 2 Prof. Not sure what the conversion rate is now. Generally though you want a staff with as high MDB as possible and phase with as high EDB as possible, everything else is secondary.

I can't get why 1MDB=1EDB=2Prof would become 1MDB>2Prof>1EDB, but anyway...

I said that because

MDB staffs (destruction) are more valuable than EDB staffs because they can boost every spells you're using instead of one specific spells.

and profs... I thought they do more than just dmg at half rate, but I guess that's melee only (damn them! I hate how melee in light are almost equal to mages as far as supportive goes - that's so... counterintuitive). Though ditto on "The damage caused by Status Effects" and what's the ratio compared to increase from MDB and EDB.

Anyway, I asked because I had Superior Oak Staff of Heimdall drop, and after calcing it, I decided even if I go holy, there's no way it give me more than my crappy Ex Redwood of Dest some1 had thrown to bazaar for less than 500 cr.

This post has been edited by Valheran: Dec 28 2011, 14:58

I said that because
and profs... I thought they do more than just dmg at half rate, but I guess that's melee only (damn them! I hate how melee in light are almost equal to mages as far as supportive goes - that's so... counterintuitive). Though ditto on "The damage caused by Status Effects" and what's the ratio compared to increase from MDB and EDB.

Anyway, I asked because I had Superior Oak Staff of Heimdall drop, and after calcing it, I decided even if I go holy, there's no way it give me more than my crappy Ex Redwood of Dest some1 had thrown to bazaar for less than 500 cr.

The best thing about redwood staffs is the 50% 3turn ET

It used to be 1 MDM (not MDB) > 1 EDB > 2 Prof.

That's exactly what I want to know, why 1 EDB is (/was) better than 2 Prof?

And it says MDB on wiki, MDM for some reason makes me think of mitigation (Magical Defense: Mitigation perhaps?).

This post has been edited by Valheran: Dec 28 2011, 15:15

What happens here is that when I have my ethereal on, Shatter Strike (which is far superior than Spirit Stance when you're fighting larger waves from my experience) will do abysmal damage and won't oneshot jack on mid difficulty settings, thus taking even more time than a standard Mace - standard Mace which is still unusable on anything harder than Heroic because of the aforementioned Giants and Dragonkins.

Small tip that works.
Activate spirit mode first and then use shatter strike.
It will cost you a turn (although activating spirit mode seems like a fairly quick action) but it doubles your damage, including your damage for shatter strike.
Makes it a bit more potent, and since spirit mode turns off as soon as you use shatter strike, the cost in spirit points doesn't get very burdensome.

Basically, when people are like "it's 100 % vs your old 33 %, it's good", it's not really like that, because half of the time you're activating Spirit Stance or recharging Overcharge, and at some point you'll run out of Spirit.

Did some calculations on that in the patch thread.
Basically, if you use every action to attack, and you hit your target with every attack, the damage bonus will be equivalent of 75% over time.

This since you keep gaining overcharge even with spirit mode on, making it last longer.

But if you do anything except hitting monsters with an unlikely accuracy, the relative damage bonus drops off.
And then I mean anything at all, including activating spirit mode.
And misses, potions, buffs etc, all cause it to go do down.

Compare that to the static 93% of the old OC system.

Could someone explain to me deal with oak and willow staves? Looking ar EHWiki equipment ranges, it seems there are set to have much less MDB than others, without much in a way of compensation. Is there a point other than making good staves drop less frequently?

On somewhat related note, from generic mage formula, it seems for calculating dmg 1MDB=1EDB=2Prof. That would mean 1MDB>2Prof>1EDB. But from comments here it seems to me there is something to EDB I'm missing...

Not quite sure how it works, but the impression I've gotten is that the formula is roughly something like this.
Spells work on a percentage modifier basis. So it takes your magic damage as base, and increases it with the bonus from the appropriate spell proficiency, then you get the percentage bonus from your elemental damage bonus and a percentage bonus from the individual spells formula.

Lots of percentages that stacks up, causing the truly huge damage output that mages have.

So the magic damage bonus from staffs don't really count that much, although more gives a higher base since it all comes from there.
+10 in magic damage on a staff isn't that big of a deal, but it applies equally to all damage spells, making it universally useful.

Elemental damage bonus is much more so. Because here +10 means 10% more damage done with that damage type.
And proficiency gives a bonus of 1+prof/200, meaning 200 in proficiency doubles the damage. Or if you want, each point of proficiency increases spell damage related to that proficiency with 0,5%.
So a staff with +40 in proficiency bonus gives a bonus damage to spells in that proficiency of roughly 20%.

So 1 EDB is really equal to 2 prof.
But I don't think 1 MDB is in the same class, since with 1000 magic damage, that is only a 0,1% increase, and since it is not percentage base, the value of each point decreases as the total gets larger.

Just compare the difference between a destruction staff with 300 bonus magic damage, and a staff with 100 bonus damage and 200% elemental damage bonus.
One of those is common at higher levels, the other would fetch incredible prices if sold (apart from being impossible since EDB don't go that high).

So it's more like 10 MDB = 1 EDB = 2 prof.
But the MDB varies in value depending on how much you already have.

Since we're at it, I'll ask too since I don't know much about staves:

From the wiki Willows seem to be utterly useless (low damage, no elemental bonus and even weaker dark damage, only 3 proficiencies) or something like that, is that right?

Redwood too doesn't seem that great, but at least it has every proficiency.

Oak I guess can help with FSM and schoolgirl marathons...

Katalox seems to be the best, but I've never actually dropped one (that might explain it lol) :V

Can Ebony rival Katalox for elemental mages? Bonus wise it seems so, but I don't know if the Holy/Dark combo is just way better than elemental (if it was me I'd just go with Wind for Giants+Dragonkin lol)...

Being a bit of a newbie mage, I'm not the best expert on it, but here goes my thoughts.
Redwood seems to have a higher MDB, and does give a bonus to all proficiencies, somewhat making up for a lack of specific EDB.
Essentially making it a universal staff, adaptable to the circumstance.

Willow and oak staffs are of course related to their specific element, holy or dark. And Ebony does the same for elemental spells.
Willow staffs does indeed seem to be pretty weak. While Oak staffs are better for holy spells than katalox in general, willow seems to hold no advantage over a katalox. And it doesn't make any sense that it gives a bonus in elemental proficiency.

Katalox are rare and generally superior, since they do both dark and holy, which is a good combination since you can explode the status effects for bonus damage (essentially a "free" spell) and no monster has good resistances to both holy and dark.

Kind of the way katanas are superior to longswords.
Except that while katanas are fairly weak due to longswords being weak since they don't stun and don't cause bleeds as good as scythes, katalox doesn't suffer from that problem.

That's exactly what I want to know, why 1 EDB is (/was) better than 2 Prof?

And it says MDB on wiki, MDM for some reason makes me think of mitigation (Magical Defense: Mitigation perhaps?).

The equation is something like (1+EDB/100)(1+Prof./200), right?
Since you have natural prof. and prof. from equipments, we can separate prof. in the above equation into 2 components: Prof_natural and Prof_equipments
So the equation becomes
(1+EDB/100) [1+(Prof_natural+ Prof_equipments)/200]
= (1+EDB/100)(1+Prof_natural/200) + (1+EDB/100)(1+Prof_equipments/200)
= (1+EDB/100)(1+Prof_natural/200) + (1+EDB/100+Prof_equipments/200+EDB*Prof_equipments/20000)

As you can see from the equation, the second part represents what you understand: 1EDB~2prof.
The first term is what I called 'cross-term effect': when you have high natural prof., you with get a large first term with high EDB rather than high Prof.

that's why 1 EDB is almost always better than 2 Prof

Varst explained it, I'll try my best to clarify.

What I use to evaluate upgrades:

Base damage = (INT * 1.25) + (WIS *0.75) + (Staff Prof * 0.5) + (Title rank) + (Equip MDB)

Bonus damage = (1.5 if crit) * (1.5 if channelled) * (1 + Arcane Focus + Riddlemaster) * ( 1 + StaminaBonus) * (1 + HathPerk) * (1 + EDB) * (1 + proficiency/200)

Final damage = Base damage * Bonus damage * (2 if primary AOE target) * (1 + (SpellAbilityPoints - 1)*0.0625) * ElemResist - ElemAbsorb

The bonus damage formula is multiplicative, so assuming equal values (eg: 1 EDB = 2 prof) boosting the smaller variables by the same amount will result in a greater final value. Because at higher levels you already have natural elemental/divine/forbidden proficiency, this mean boosting EDB will have a greater effect until it is greater than your proficiency. (Edit: This was also why MDM was so good before. But at least now we know how INT/WIS factors into the equation.)

eg:
300 elemental prof, 100 EDB = boosting EDB more advantageous
300 elemental prof, 150 EDB = EDB / prof even
300 elemental prof, 200 EDB = boosting prof more advantageous

Edit: ninja'd XD

This post has been edited by Ballistic9: Dec 28 2011, 16:24

Katalox and ebony serve different purposes; one isn't better than the other. If you are set up to use elemental magic, you will want to use an ebony staff because it provides bonuses to the appropriate proficiencies and EDB. Likewise, if you use holy/dark magic, you will want to use a katalox staff for the same reason.

Holy/dark magic is nice because they are complementary and the base resistances of custom mobs are set up such that when an enemy type is resistant to one, it's typically weak or neutral to the other. Moreover, their status effects are really nice, with Breached Defense making enemies take more damage and Blunted Attack being like a mini-Weaken on everything, the latter of which sticks to every target when applied with Ragnarok. The downside is that holy/dark spells eat through your MP very quickly.

Personally, I still like elemental spells, but the drawback is that it's very possible that you'll run into groups of enemies that are largely resistant to your EDB-backed element of choice, leaving you with no option but to use spells that will do less damage (though this might not be an issue if you have high end phase?). Furthermore, once you get into the schoolgirl runs, you'll be at a disadvantage since three of the four schoolgirls are resistant to elemental magic.

Ebony/Katalox have different purposes, you'll need both types. Most high level mages have 1 holy set, 1 dark set and at least 1 elemental set.

Thanks guys, it's much more clear now.

What I'm really curious about though it's mages APs management. I mean, I understand everyone sorta develops his own style, but is there any guideline for starters?

I think it's pretty much granted that one wants to spends points on best possible tier for his spells of choice, but with spells oneshotting things on lower difficulty settings (I guess at least, according to some posts that can happen on IWTBH too lol), should one still use points in lower tier spells?

Is it also uncommon to have more than a single elemental combo? Or, say, it's everyone choice to go dark/holy plus a couple more elements just to cover every possible scenario?

I said that because
and profs... I thought they do more than just dmg at half rate, but I guess that's melee only (damn them! I hate how melee in light are almost equal to mages as far as supportive goes - that's so... counterintuitive). Though ditto on "The damage caused by Status Effects" and what's the ratio compared to increase from MDB and EDB.

Anyway, I asked because I had Superior Oak Staff of Heimdall drop, and after calcing it, I decided even if I go holy, there's no way it give me more than my crappy Ex Redwood of Dest some1 had thrown to bazaar for less than 500 cr.

If the melee has low interference and you have no supportive bonus, then yes, you will be equal in skills for buffs.
Not very counter-intuitive really, since buffs is the magic that melees specialize in.
But get a bit of supportive bonus and you'll outdo them.

Also, here is kicker for oak staffs and katalox. Heals are holy damage.
So your oak staff of heimdall will make your Regen II all the more effective.



I have a question for more experienced mages tho, about the tiers on spells.
Basing it on elemental spells makes it easy to find the basic tiers. They are simply T1, T2 and T3, in the order which they appear and they all cost the same compared to each other.
But how are they in damage to each other?
A T2 spells about twice as much as a T1 spell, but does it do twice the damage?
and a T3 spell costs about three times as much a T1, but again, does it do three times the damage?
So is the damage per mana the lesser, greater or the same, when you go to a higher tier spell.

And more importantly, Holy and Dark spells seems to lack a T1. And the holy got 2 tiers which are in cost equivalent to T2 and T3 elemental spells, but are the equivalent in damage? Or do the first holy spell do the same damage as a T1 elemental spell but have the cost of a T2 one?
And Dark spells are even tricker, they seem to start at T3 and then adds a T4. Does it do more damage, or is it just costlier without any other benefit than that it does dark damage?


And for that matter, where do soul spells factor into it?
The lower one is slightly cheaper than a T3 elemental spell, and the higher one has a cost equivalent to a theoretical T5, but does it do damage as one?

Thanks guys, it's much more clear now.

What I'm really curious about though it's mages APs management. I mean, I understand everyone sorta develops his own style, but is there any guideline for starters?

I think it's pretty much granted that one wants to spends points on best possible tier for his spells of choice, but with spells oneshotting things on lower difficulty settings (I guess at least, according to some posts that can happen on IWTBH too lol), should one still use points in lower tier spells?

Is it also uncommon to have more than a single elemental combo? Or, say, it's everyone choice to go dark/holy plus a couple more elements just to cover every possible scenario?

OC is really freaking expensive.
So while mages have to stretch their AP at lower levels, when the ability tiers come often, at higher levels this is less of a problem
After all, OC for a tier costs 5 AP, single target spell + full AoE costs 6 AP.
Meaning the cost for every single spell in the game is only 18 AP more than having full OC boost.

Cut just 3 spells out, and the cost is the same.

Personally, I'm having more trouble with not enough space on my quickbar (and bonus quickbar) than not having enough AP to put into spells.

@Ballistic9

I'm seriously thinking if I should do some test to see if base damage works as intended in your formula.
I still can't find any good way to test that, however.

So for quick and dirty estimation of staff with more MDB without EDB or prof vs 1 with them, I need to take my magical attack base, divide by 100, then multiply by EDB/ half Prof on 2nd, and tack that onto 2nd staff MDB?

Please do not laugh, I'm so mathematically challenged, average dinosaur could outcount me (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/anime_cry.gif)

So the magic damage bonus from staffs don't really count that much, although more gives a higher base since it all comes from there.
+10 in magic damage on a staff isn't that big of a deal, but it applies equally to all damage spells, making it universally useful.

Haven't done the calculations for lower levels, but at higher levels MDB is king (higher multipliers).

Redwood seems to have a higher MDB, and does give a bonus to all proficiencies, somewhat making up for a lack of specific EDB.
Essentially making it a universal staff, adaptable to the circumstance.

Redwood's what you use until you can find a decent ebony, IMO. The extra proficiencies don't make up for the damage loss from EDB.

While Oak staffs are better for holy spells than katalox in general, willow seems to hold no advantage over a katalox. And it doesn't make any sense that it gives a bonus in elemental proficiency.

Oaks are cheaper than Kataloxes, but a Heimdall Katalox will do more dark/soul damage than the Oak (better for general arena/Konata). Destruction Willows don't match up to Fenrir Kataloxes either but they're cheaper.

What I'm really curious about though it's mages APs management. I mean, I understand everyone sorta develops his own style, but is there any guideline for starters?

Dunno, since resist APs are mostly useless you should be able to just get everything.

I think it's pretty much granted that one wants to spends points on best possible tier for his spells of choice, but with spells oneshotting things on lower difficulty settings (I guess at least, according to some posts that can happen on IWTBH too lol), should one still use points in lower tier spells?

Gotta read the context though. Using Ragnarok to primary target a squishy angel mob on IWBTH will utterly destroy it, but you won't fare as well against a giant, say (unless you channel crit (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cool2.gif) ).

Also, here is kicker for oak staffs and katalox. Heals are holy damage.
So your oak staff of heimdall will make your Regen II all the more effective.

Just to clarify: holy EDB doesn't buff Regen, only curative proficiency. Buffs Cure though.

I have a question for more experienced mages tho, about the tiers on spells.
Basing it on elemental spells makes it easy to find the basic tiers. They are simply T1, T2 and T3, in the order which they appear and they all cost the same compared to each other.
But how are they in damage to each other?

Only Tenb knows. Too many mobs with varying stats/resistances for it to be worth trying to figure out (with the exception of legendary arenas).

And for that matter, where do soul spells factor into it?
The lower one is slightly cheaper than a T3 elemental spell, and the higher one has a cost equivalent to a theoretical T5, but does it do damage as one?

Soul Reaper/Harvest is crap and only useful to recharge Spirit.
Soul Burst does insane damage but only if the enemy has Burning Soul active (for which you need Soul Fire).

So for quick and dirty estimation of staff with more MDB without EDB or prof vs 1 with them, I need to take my magical attack base, divide by 100, then multiply by EDB/ half Prof on 2nd, and tack that onto 2nd staff MDB?

Please do not laugh, I'm so mathematically challenged, average dinosaur could outcount me (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/anime_cry.gif)

Nah, it doesn't work like that, and I don't think Randommember's correct on that ratio.

How about some qualitative method: pick staff in the following order: MDB, EDB, prof.
As far as I know it can already solve 99% of your problems.

So for quick and dirty estimation of staff with more MDB without EDB or prof vs 1 with them, I need to take my magical attack base, divide by 100, then multiply by EDB/ half Prof on 2nd, and tack that onto 2nd staff MDB?

Please do not laugh, I'm so mathematically challenged, average dinosaur could outcount me (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/anime_cry.gif)

Make a spreadsheet. Seriously. It's the only way ><