[X] My Assistant

and if you still insisting to integrate that discount to the calculation, you should put that on the base cost of HS

HS base cost: 469
HS expected cost are decreased by it's natural chance of getting channeling: 469-111.9 = 357.1

100% channeled HS bonus used (+50%)
IA5 ( lose ~64.58MP / battle ) + 58.21 = ~ lose 6.37 MP / battle

I remembered that Fudo at one point did attempt to integrate his Heartseeker channeling itself bonus more formally. So I went back to find his formulas and found the mistakes. It's a better approach than just adding 111.9 MP/battle purely favoring the usage of IA but it's still wrong.

I think he made two separate logical errors. First, I don't think the correct idea is to adjust the base cost of Heartseeker, the concept of HS expected cost should not apply here. Second, his formula to calculate the HS expected cost is wrong, it needs multiplications and divisions as part of it, not just a straight subtraction.

His current formula allows the Heartseeker expected cost become zero or a negative number, if the Channeling bonus duration is sufficiently long.

Maybe being a pyromaniac it's uncool...

You pretty much nailed it. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

Maybe if you calculate the expected base cost of Heartseeker very carefully then Fudo's way could work. But a better HS expected cost formula is needed, and even then there is a problem.

Even if we assume Fudo's way is correct, his result can only apply for the full channeled bonus used (+50%) section. The other results must be wrong. Because in order to get his 357.1 HS expected cost, he input 111.9 HS savings, which itself arose from the assumption that the used bonus is +50%. That's a broken circular logic.

and if you still insisting to integrate that discount to the calculation, you should put that on the base cost of HS

HS expected cost are decreased by it's natural chance of getting channeling : 469-111.9 (channel bonus used +50%)= 357.1

Base HS bonus (channel bonus used +0%)
IA5 357.1 - 362 + 181 = 176.1 -> 57,408.6 ( ~ lose 64.58MP / battle )

full channeled HS bonus used (+50%)
IA5 ( lose ~64.58MP / battle ) + 58.21 = ~ lose 6.37 MP / battle

Let me try to fix Fudo's method. I propose: HS expected cost = 469 + 469 * (Channel Bonus) * (1 - 47.84%)

Channel Bonus can be as desired, +50% is the example. 47.84% is the agreed calculated chance for Heartseeker to channel itself. The Channel Bonus is already part of this new formula, so it doesn't need to be applied later like before.

Plugging my made-up HS expected cost into Fudo's method gives the same answer I initially proposed. So perhaps I cheated. This HS expected cost formula seems fair to me though. It's a different way of looking at the problem which ultimately gives the same answer in a not obvious way.

I am puzzled why I am drained without Spirit Stance. The Settings menu lists my upkeep at 1.55 MP/round. I have +27 Magic Regen per tick which the wiki formula MP gained per turn = Magic Regen * perk_bonus / 15 says is equivalent to 1.8 MP/turn. Can anyone explain my mistake?

I tested it extensively and concluded the error is in the shown wiki formula for natural regen. My actual MP regen is about 1.38 MP/turn, not 1.8 MP/turn as calculated. I verified that all other things such as IA upkeep seem to work as expected, and rounding error is minor. Infodump follows.

CODE

Level 365, no Spirit Stance

1636 MP, +27 Magic Regen per tick

Protection: 100 MP (210 turns)
Shadow Veil: 134 MP (98 turns)
Spark: 139 turns (124 turns)
Haste: 125 MP (126 turns)
Regen: 281 MP (103 turns)

Protection + Spark = 0.95 MP/round
Protection + Spark + Shadow = 1.77 MP/round
Protection + Spark + Haste = 1.55 MP/round

1636 MP --> 1264 MP --> 984 MP --> 1117 MP
(1117 - 984) / 97 = 1.37 MP/turn
1636 MP --> 1221 MP --> 1265 MP
(1265 - 1221) / 98 = 0.45 MP/turn
1636 MP --> 1273 MP --> 992 MP --> 1163 MP --> 1165 MP
(1165 - 992) / 125 = 1.38 MP/turn
1636 MP --> 1230 MP --> 1285 MP
(1285 - 1230) / 126 = 0.44 MP/turn

Yeah, that katalox staff is a self-drop...

Hmm, if for cold mage, which slot I should get for cotton???
Is it the same as dari mage (cotton robe/pants)???

Yeah, that katalox staff is a self-drop...

Hmm, if for cold mage, which slot I should get for cotton???
Is it the same as dari mage (cotton robe/pants)???

For cold you use shoes OR gloves.

For cold you use shoes OR gloves.

Why for cold? Shouldnt it be all the same no matter what element? I mean i can see that i could be different for holy or dark. But i cant see there be a reason why fire or elec would be different. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Maybe because I ask for cold??? lol
Though I assume its the same for every elementalist, right???

right???

Well, that is what i am curious about. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

Why for cold? Shouldnt it be all the same no matter what element?

Maybe because I ask for cold??? lol

This^

So no difference to fire, elec, wind in that regard?

So no difference to fire, elec, wind in that regard?

There is no difference regarding those 4 styles in this particular matter, all of them uses shoes or gloves as the cotton piece (priority for shoes).

I tested it extensively and concluded the error is in the shown wiki formula for natural regen. My actual MP regen is about 1.38 MP/turn, not 1.8 MP/turn as calculated. I verified that all other things such as IA upkeep seem to work as expected, and rounding error is minor.

Idk how much the regen perk gives you in your calculations, but I remember reading a while back that it's basically worthless because it only doubles base regen, without accounting for star bonus or whatever else can enhance it.

There is no difference regarding those 4 styles in this particular matter, all of them uses shoes or gloves as the cotton piece (priority for shoes).

another question...
do I need charged prefix if I only plan to do PFUDOR arena???
just plain element prefixes will suffice for that???

another question...
do I need charged prefix if I only plan to do PFUDOR arena???
just plain element prefixes will suffice for that???

I used to play PF arenas with plain build and it is sufficient.

On the Advanced Advice page on the wiki, it recommends (for mages) to keep DEX at 0.2 times your level, and END at 0.9 times your level. Is this correct?
Aren't the parry chance from DEX, and especially the mitigation and HP from END worth it?

You have almost no Phy Mitigation when playing Mage, but much more Agility. Not getting hit at all is the winning play.

This post has been edited by RibbonsCan: Jan 11 2019, 05:31

On the Advanced Advice page on the wiki, it recommends (for mages) to keep DEX at 0.2 times your level, and END at 0.9 times your level. Is this correct?
Aren't the parry chance from DEX, and especially the mitigation and HP from END worth it?

Yes, According to some veterans more dex than 0.2 helps.

You can invest more into Dexterity.
My current one is 22.7% parry chance.

what Kinights said.

It should be similar to your level to get some parry chance.

I increased my parry until I got 17% parry chance and it really makes a difference.

And about END, something similar happens, investing a little bit more points than those recommended in the wiki can reduce the number of cures casted without compromising your offense too much. But you do better wait for an actual expert to answer that part about END, they can offer better feedback. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

Yes, According to some veterans more dex than 0.2 helps.
I increased my parry until I got 17% parry chance and it really makes a difference.

And about END, something similar happens, investing a little bit more points than those recommended in the wiki can reduce the number of cures casted without compromising your offense too much. But you do better wait for an actual expert to answer that part about END, they can offer better feedback. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

That was my thoughts too, hence why I asked to make sure.

Aside from having to cure less if you have some END, since the spirit damage taken from spirit shield is based on the percentage of HP you took past the damage cap (20% of your max HP at max level spirit shield), it would probably also significantly reduce the amount of spirit potions needed; because it both reduces the damage of the hit (through mitigations), and increases your HP, which means spirit shield's damage cap goes up, which in turn means less damage will be converted into spirit damage (which is fine since it's still only 20%, but you just take less spirit damage from it).

That said, I don't know if spirit damage from spirit shield is normally an issue at high levels.

This post has been edited by NoliCAIKS: Jan 11 2019, 06:13

That was my thoughts too, hence why I asked to make sure.

Aside from having to cure less if you have some END, since the spirit damage taken from spirit shield is based on the percentage of HP you took past the damage cap (20% of your max HP at max level spirit shield), it would probably also significantly reduce the amount of spirit potions needed; because it both reduces the damage of the hit (through mitigations), and increases your HP, which means spirit shield's damage cap goes up, which in turn means less damage will be converted into spirit damage (which is fine since it's still only 20%, but you just take less spirit damage from it).

That said, I don't know if spirit damage from spirit shield is normally an issue at high levels.

the advice on the wiki is meant for starting mages. I think that the other stats have priority over DEX and END at low level. But at level 500, you will have enough point to go way higher on DEX and END. Again, it's a matter of taste - do you want a bit better survival? Or a bit better damage? Low level players need to make choices and can't go for perfection.

If we all feel that the wiki needs to be changed, I will gladly do it of course.

For my part, mage or whatever, I make it so that the upgrade cost of END is 2-4 times greater than the one of DEX, AGI and WIS. This is supposed to optimize my defense overall and frankly so far it works very well. Then I upgrade offense (STR, INT) only if it makes a noticeable difference on the attack stats.