[X] My Assistant

Advanced players always seek for more damage instead of survivability

Ehm, mind to rephrase that? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

Panzer VIII enters the battle (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I'll just tell that defense is bullshit for advanced players. Advanced players always seek for more damage instead of survivability because they already have enough.

please define "advanced player".

Club stuns monsters, which means monsters won't be able to parry your attacks. DW doesn't have innate overwhelming strikes as 1h does, so PFD monsters parry a lot.

Any idea what enemies' parry chance is lategame? I hadn't thought of that.

Any idea what enemies' parry chance is lategame? I hadn't thought of that.

That depends afaik completly on the chaos tokens a monster had set into Interception. With 0.5% for each point in Interception is increased ranging from 0% up to a max of 10%.

I'll just tell that defense is bullshit for advanced players. Advanced players always seek for more damage instead of survivability because they already have enough.

Bullshit.
No one has ever enough defense for late PFFEST.

I like NoliCAIKS idea to use his best weapon for both 1H and DW. I currently have that. A Legendary Rapier of Slaughter works well in DW paired with Wakizashi/Shortsword offhand. It also works decently as DW offhand, paired with Club mainhand. In reality I'm using 1H for various reasons, but it's nice to keep the DW possibility open. Higher level players need less defense but remember DW tends to need more defense than 1H. High level DW players are more likely to use Club+Rapier because it's more offensive.

no, we can't set this disagreement aside, as...you insist to put this on the calculation. by all means point out where the fallacy is. It's like saying "after spending $1000 for a raffle that you lose, you then bought the item at discounted price and said that the discount is saving even though you could buy the said item on discount anyway without doing the raffle."

it's not "hard to say for sure", the answer to that is easy, the best method is the one that gives channeling in a way that it lower or even diminish the need of mana to cast heartseeker. in this regard while none might be the best, but clearly between mine, greshnik or your playstyle, yours is on the losing end.

yeah, it's all unrelated, like how unrelated the bonus actually is if I use all channeling (which some ended up used for absorb) to cast heartseeker, as the duration would shrink to merely ~150 turn anyway.

I said that I was fine with ignoring the Heartseeker channeling itself phenomena, and in fairness I would also ignore the two channelings phenomena, and other side effects. Your original matrix table, which ignores all these phenomena, is our best agreed-upon reference so far.

I fully agree it's like your raffle analogy. But the raffle loser can indeed choose to later buy the item at discount price, if he wants to. And when he does this, can you ignore that? The discount was there and must be accounted for properly (at reduced weight like I did).

It's far from clear which mid-arena recasting style between you, me, and Greshnik is correct. For starters, we don't even know exactly what our 3 styles are, how can you say the answer is clear? We only know enough partial information to know we are different.

Indeed, the last strategy you pointed out, shrinking the utilized Heartseeker duration way down to 150 turns, is certainly within your power to do, with all the Channeling you have. (I think this similar to what Greshnik does). That's why it's such an interesting and difficult comparison.

I have already tried to imagine our 3 styles and did calculations for each, but it's very complicated. There are more factors because Regen management is also playing a key role. The answer may surprise you. Even though we have extremely different styles (evidenced by our choosing to recast Heartseeker at different thresholds) the final mana efficiency might be almost the same. I will elaborate after we can reach more agreements.

I like NoliCAIKS idea to use his best weapon for both 1H and DW.

Yeah, i have thought about something like that once. But i decided, 1H and DW want different IW. As DW you want some Overpower, as 1H you want Fat and But only. So dont you see that as a problem? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

That depends afaik completly on the chaos tokens a monster had set into Interception. With 0.5% for each point in Interception is increased ranging from 0% up to a max of 10%.

Alright, if it only goes up to 10% then I think I can cope with it. That person got me scared for a moment that I'd deal like no damage without counter-parry or stuns.

Yeah, i have thought about something like that once. But i decided, 1H and DW want different IW. As DW you want some Overpower, as 1H you want Fat and But only. So dont you see that as a problem? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Considering I'm just getting an Exquisite Ethereal Rapier to use until I'm high enough level to get a good legendary, I only intend to IW it once, mostly just for the extra damage from the Elemental Strike. Any other mods I get on it are just a bonus.

I said that I was fine with ignoring the Heartseeker channeling itself phenomena, and in fairness I would also ignore the two channelings phenomena, and other side effects. Your original matrix table, which ignores all these phenomena, is our best agreed-upon reference so far.

I didn't ignore the two channelings, I did consider that by saying "even if you quadruple whatever bonus you get to compensate whatever fringe things you could think of that increase it's bonus, it's still less than one mana draught"
you're the one who decided to ignore thing when things don't come your way.

I fully agree it's like your raffle analogy. But the raffle loser can indeed choose to later buy the item at discount price, if he wants to. And when he does this, can you ignore that? The discount was there and must be accounted for properly (at reduced weight like I did).

no matter what happened you need the goods, and you brings a method to pay a little for a chance to obtain cheaper.

at first we talk on full price. then I point that the goods is on a discount, and how it actually not far if not cheaper than your method, but let's consider the full price as that's what the good actual worth is.
you insist to consider the discount.
ok, sure.

not using your method scenario
goods priced at $100, it's discounted at $50
you pay $50 to obtain it.
you said your method is cheaper.

losing scenario
goods priced at $100, it's discounted at $50
you pay 30$ for a chance to obtain it
you fail to obtain it
on top of already losing $30 you now have to pay $50 to buy the goods
you ended up paying $80
and then you adamantly said "well my method only cost me $30 so with $50 discount I actually make $20. so even if I lose, I win"
that's fkin stupid. you waste $30 no matter how you look it.

winning scenario
goods priced at $100, it's discounted at $50
you pay $30 for a chance to obtain it
you obtain it
and then you said, it's $100 and I only pay $30, so I save $70, see, my method is cheaper.
yes it is cheaper, but no, you actually only save $20 as you only need to pay $50 on the first place.

and now you said let's ignore the discount.

still not seeing it?

It's far from clear which mid-arena recasting style between you, me, and Greshnik is correct. For starters, we don't even know exactly what our 3 styles are, how can you say the answer is clear? We only know enough partial information to know we are different.

the relevant information is I and greshnik have no problem keeping HS on with natural channeling while you said you don't
and don't deny that because you said it yourself.

let me quote it again

But as you pointed out, in reality you waste your Heartseeker duration anyway. I can only say that at my level 364 and strength I don't waste any Heartseeker duration yet. Even though I generate mana and drop gems very fast, I still struggle to permanently channel Regen and Heartseeker. I imagine the same situation holds for Uncle Stu at level 500 because he complained his mana supply and clear speeds are worse than mine.

Maybe when I reach your level 467, I would share your experience. If all other things are equal, a higher level player acquires more mana. In that case our matrix says that using IA5 saves 12.78 MP/battle.

which once again most are debunked, uncle stu was joking, and greshnik who is lower level than you didn't struggle to channel HS.

Indeed, the last strategy you pointed out, shrinking the utilized Heartseeker duration way down to 150 turns, is certainly within your power to do, with all the Channeling you have. (I think this similar to what Greshnik does). That's why it's such an interesting and difficult comparison.

I have already tried to imagine our 3 styles and did calculations for each, but it's very complicated. There are more factors because Regen management is also playing a key role. The answer may surprise you. Even though we have extremely different styles (evidenced by our choosing to recast Heartseeker at different thresholds) the final mana efficiency might be almost the same. I will elaborate after we can reach more agreements.

that's not a sound strategy, it's a stupidity, in case you the miss the sarcasm...
with all that happened, even without looking at it I doubt your calculation is correct.
and there will be no agreements if you keep running away from things that doesn't go your way.

and no, I don't care about your playstyle, if talking about what happened only on the first round brings this much of stupid, I prefer not hearing the rest.

This post has been edited by Fudo Masamune: Jan 9 2019, 23:59

It's a problem. Either you have to live with substandard Overpower in DW Rapier of Slaughter mainhand, or use DW Club and Rapier of Slaughter offhand. Club style does not need Overpower because of stun, and Slaughter is not as good as Balance in offhand. Whichever you choose, you lose maybe 5% damage. But that's still worth it for credits savings, especially after you upgraded your weapon to the max.

I never troubled over mana draught usage for Regen & Heartseeker in arena except for SG's arena...
with Protection, SoL, and SS slotted in IA3, 1 draught basically enought for 2-3 x Regen...
except in the 1st round which I usually cast Heartseeker before Regen, I rarely use mana for HS as channeling often come before the duration over and I keep a Mystic Gem for a last resort when I don't get channeling...and I often had an unused Mystic Gem in the last few round because channeling keep coming

my habbit for channeling is like this...
when I don't have Mystic Gem I use channeling for HS when HS duration is ~200-250 left, otherwise I use it for Regen...
when I have Mystic Gem I use channeling for HS when the duration is under 200...
I haven't meet a problem even though I only got channeling just from casting Regen and occasional Cure, and Mystic Gem...

Fudo, let's take an example and study Greshnik's way. I'll assume Greshnik and I are almost the same level. So my Heartseeker duration is 352, this means he recasts Heartseeker when it only used 352 - 250 ≈ 100 turns like your recent proposal. I crossed out Mystic Gem and Cure stuff for simplicity.

This means he basically only casts Regen using mana over and over, and any lucky Channeling from Regen is used for extending Heartseeker after just 150 turns used, or recasting Regen with 50% bonus. I won't say whether this is the best strategy but I claimed before that all of us have a reasonably good strategy.

What is Greshnik's thinking? He does this because Regen costs 281 mana, so using his Channeling to recast Regen saves 281 * 50% ≈ 140 MP. Meanwhile, Heartseeker has used 469 MP * 100 turns / 352 turns ≈ 134 MP. It's about the same amount. So it could make sense to recast Heartseeker even as early as this, because he has nothing else useful to cast.

This is a smart thinking. There may be an error in it, but it's still a good thinking, and not much worse than the optimal (maybe your real way is the optimal, maybe mine, I won't comment yet).

I claimed before that to determine your true benefit from Channeled Heartseeker's +50% duration, it doesn't matter what way you use, and it doesn't even matter if your way is the best one. It just matters that you keep the same way at all times. Be consistent in your recasting approach.

So let's pretend we are Greshnik. What would happen if Tenboro magically changed his Heartseeker duration from 362 to 1000 turns? Will he still recast Heartseeker after 100 turns? I guess only he knows the answer. But in my made-up version of Greshnik's method, even he would wait longer to recast Heartseeker. I think he would wait 300 turns, because 469 * 300 / 1000 ≈ 140 turns.

Therefore, when Heartseeker somehow got 3x duration, even Greshnik with his strange way would also utilize 3x longer Heartseeker (100 turns --> 300 turns). That's why I claim that Channeled Heartseeker benefits you, me, and Greshnik possibly close to 50%.

If you don't like my Tenboro invention, we can also study Greshnik another way. When he gets Channeled Heartseeker by luck, the game says it has 352 * 1.5 = 528 turns. Then Greshnik by his own words would wait until ~200-250 left, this means he used 528 - 228 ≈ 300 turns.

So actually this alternate calculation had a different result, Channeled Heartseeker gives Greshnik +200% improvement...bottom line is the true benefit from Channeled Heartseeker depends in some imaginary way on how you play, not the turns you used in reality.

please define "advanced player".

"a player who always seeks for more damage instead of survivability"

Fudo, bla bla bla yadayada
What is Greshnik's thinking?
-nothing important here-

what greshnik thinking? whatever it is it could keep HS running without mana except the first cast using channeling unlike your playstyle.
the question is what are you thinking?
just kidding, I don't care anymore and I don't read your post past the first sentence, as clearly you're now steering the discussion away from what's it was about.
keep running away from things that you don't like, maybe you'll find something somewhere.

"a player who always seeks for more damage instead of survivability"

by that definition... if the contrary is newb... then I'm a newb...
well.. I am.

This post has been edited by Fudo Masamune: Jan 10 2019, 00:11

you insist to consider the discount. ok, sure.

not using your method scenario
goods priced at $100, it's discounted at $50
you pay $50 to obtain it.
you said my method is cheaper.

losing scenario
goods priced at $100, it's discounted at $50
you pay 30$ for a chance to obtain it
you fail to obtain it
on top of already losing $30 you now have to pay $50 to buy the goods
you ended up paying $80
and then you adamantly said "well my method only cost me $30 so with $50 discount I actually make $20. so even if I lose, I win"

winning scenario
goods priced at $100, it's discounted at $50
you pay $30 for a chance to obtain it
you obtain it
and then you said, it's $100 and I only pay $30, so I save $70.

the relevant information is I and greshnik have no problem keeping HS on with natural channeling while you said you don't
and don't deny that because you said it yourself. let me quote it again

that's not a sound strategy, it's a stupidity, in case you the miss the sarcasm...

I agree with your goods analogy and description of the prices, but I never said those things you crossed out. Your accounting is flawed. It's a different issue now, but you are double-counting or mis-counting things, like you did long ago (which was fixed).

You missed a subtle part of my original quote. "I can only say that at my level 364 and strength I don't waste any Heartseeker duration yet. Even though I generate mana and drop gems very fast, I still struggle to permanently channel Regen and Heartseeker." In other words, the way I play, I almost never pay mana for Regen and I almost never pay for Heartseeker. I only cast Protection, Haste, and Spark over and over. And it's a struggle, but I make it. Actually I make it with room to spare, but when I achieve that threshold, I stop casting Protection, Haste, and Spark, and keep the IA4 versions on. My struggle is self-imposed in the name of imagined (extremely minimal) mana savings.

I didn't miss the sarcasm, but I think Greshnik actually plays similarly to that way, and I didn't call him stupid. I know that both you and I have a different recasting approach.

note to self: add mana usage logging at some point so this discussion can be laid to rest. the amount of mana spent is impossible to log, but mana recovery can be logged accurately as a close enough approximation

Club+Rapier gives you the most AD. What you saying, that a large portion of AD comes from armors is relatively wrong. Light Armors offer much less AD than heavy armors do. Actually very little. So AD from weapons is more important than you ever imagine.

I thought that was Axe and Rapier. Club just gives Stun.

This post has been edited by RibbonsCan: Jan 10 2019, 00:29

note to self: add mana usage logging at some point so this discussion can be laid to rest. the amount of mana spent is impossible to log, but mana recovery can be logged accurately as a close enough approximation

nah, I'll just stop replying, I don't care anymore.

I thought that was Axe and Rapier. Club just gives Stun.

I am quite sure stun is the point. But i have never heard of axe usage. Could work i guess when you use a nimble rapier to cover up to the parry lose.

I am quite sure stun is the point. But i have never heard of axe usage. Could work i guess when you use a nimble rapier to cover up to the parry lose.

It was several years ago, but I recall DW combos being Club + Rapier or Axe + Rapier. Club being defensive and Axe being aggressive, since Axes had a higher ADB than Clubs.

Bullshit.
No one has ever enough defense for late PFFEST.

Right. bullshit UNDER the assumption that low-level melees have time and energy to play PFDfest after finishing all Arenas. I'm afraid that the main goal for melees is to deal with Arenas, especially SG runs.

Alright, if it only goes up to 10% then I think I can cope with it. That person got me scared for a moment that I'd deal like no damage without counter-parry or stuns.

I don't scare you. It's true that quite a lot of attacks would be parried. Not just 10%. You didn't feel them yet because you've been given overwhelming strikes as 1H, which is a fking cheating advantage that 1H offers.
Why do you think some players have both Overpower 5 on main-hand and off-hand. They need them, and that actually make you faster. At the end, Clubs are superior, with no doubt.
You can take a look at what lololo16 uses. He's a very strong DW, and Niten player. Stonger than those high-level, non-advanced players.

This post has been edited by -vincento-: Jan 10 2019, 01:29