[X] My Assistant

then by all means point out where the fallacy is.
as I already point out yours is wrong as you put the number on the wrong side of calculation. the HS cost (which then got discounted) never been a regard on calculating what you lost on the losing side, while it's the main bonus from your winning side.
before you say it should be regarded on the losing side, let me reiterate, "you don't have to do the lottery to buy the goods at it's discounted price"
and no, we can't set this disagreement aside, as this encompass the main core of the discussion and you insist to put this on the calculation.
you can't just deny it when the outcome doesn't like your expectation.

Yeah, didn't read the initial post in detail because I immediately saw the double-counting which makes the subsequent calculation irrelevant.

Yeah, didn't read the initial post in detail because I immediately saw the double-counting which makes the subsequent calculation irrelevant.

The double counting from my first post was pointed by BWS and I discard it.
Then if BWS going to say that any extra HS duration from channeling are "mana saving" then I point that that means casting heartseeker and recast it right after getting any channeling (if there's any) also have it's own "mana saving" mechanism (I'll call it "natural saving").
then I compare that to any bonus he obtained from his method - which I think he didn't like and never talk about it anymore.
and then he try to use that "natural saving" to decrease the loss from whenever he would lose if he failed to obtain any channeling after wasting 3 cast, which shouldn't happen as the lose are merely from the difference between IA or not IA.
so I point that if the spell have it's "natural saving" and he's going to insist on using that, then it should go to decrease the amount he saves instead as what saving he made using his method is HS mana cost.
and it seems he didn't like it again and try to toss that aside.

Thanks for your Respond!

I using Fire Strike now.
Fight with Legendaries cost so many time,so i want use Dark or Holy in finally weapon.

I dont know cold is for?
So Ethereal weapon is not must have?
(So many advice say it is best,that is why i using it...)
Sorry,i am noob... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cry.gif)

Ethereal rapiers are not that bad. It's just some 1h players have too much obsession. ppl better than elementals. Anyway just don't pick fiery, due to high-level monster distribution.

Some perks and training that people say they don't regret buying, while most of them never paying off the initial expense. I'd like why they've never been serious about that.

Personal choices so I still value ethereal rapiers decent.
The very little burden won't make significant difference. Ethereal weapons are supposed to be left at IW9 instead of IW10, and you use a few holy/dark infusions while clearing SG runs.

Things they say are true, not most are not worth excessive concentration. You get what you want. One day you will go wind/elec, like most of the new players do. Who gets a fk about rapiers.

maybe because wiki said it??? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

fixed

Sir, such a thing doesn't exist.

Unless some patch changes it Peerless dark/holy rapier of slaughter is an endgame rapier. You also should notice word "your" (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

endgame rapier.

"a rapier one will propably use without actual strong need and or wish to replace it"
And that is how uncle does define the therm endgame rapier. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

This post has been edited by Uncle Stu: Jan 9 2019, 16:57

I didn't study the Legendary Shocking Rapier ultra carefully, but from what I checked, I believe it's worth 1m. The IW is good, not great, but it's "free" anyway. It's worth 1m at that low level even if having no IW, so he is not asking you to pay for the IW. I would buy it if I were NoliCAIKS because it matches his level and he can use it without soulfuse and resell it later.

My other point, I'm not one of the people who hypes up 1H even though I currently use it. 1H shines around level 200~250~350 but DW is very good below level 200, and DW also starts becoming good again above level 300~350. There are a number of strong DW players around.
The basic rule is, try not to spend too much more on IW than you spent to buy the rapier itself. If it's the 20k magnificent ethereal rapier you bought from my shop, you should only give it a cheap IW and accept some imperfection.

Usually it is not worth it to reforge for best element on an ethereal rapier, even an amazing legendary one. The credits cost is too high. However, on the best magnificent ethereal rapier, it is worth it to reforge for best element. Because there is a trick to reforge the final element on a magnificent ethereal weapon for cheap (salvage it and buy back from bazaar). This trick only works well on magnificent. It doesn't help much on legendary, and only wastes money on peerless.

I think when it comes to the weapons I get, I'd rather get a relatively cheap weapon that's not as good, level up with it, and then buy a cheaper legendary at a higher level (cheaper since the low level ones are more rare). That way, I can afford an even better endgame rapier because it'll be cheaper. That said, I do want to be able to level up fast with it, so my budget is about 200-300k for the rapier and I'm trying to get one from the auction. But 1m is just too much and I'd rather save it for my actual endgame weapon, especially since I plan on soulfusing this one, meaning I won't be able to resell it when that time comes; soulfusing a 1m weapon just seems like a waste, not to mention I'd need more soul fragments because it's legendary.

Also, I'm glad to hear DW becomes good again. I gave 1H a try, and it's certainly better right now (able to do PFUDOR with the same ease I did IWBTH with DW), but I just really like the concept of very high agility and evasion. It's just kind of... cool, you know?
That's also why I don't want a non-ethereal weapon, because of the burden on it. Preferably I'd get a weapon that would work for both 1H and DW, so I can switch whenever I feel like it. I'd definitely like to try DW again once I'm level 350, just to see if it gets better than 1H at that point, since that's my preferred playstyle; but right now 1H is just far too strong.

Also, I'm just wondering; why does it matter what kind of elemental strike weapons have?

I'm not joking when I say that there's no such a thing as an endgame rapier.
Why ? Because by the time one reaches the said endgame, one switched to mage playstyle a long while before.
So at best, there are expensive rapiers that are useless to you by the time you can afford that kind of lunacy.

Friendly reminder, not directed at someone in particular, that there is not one right way to play HentaiVerse. I'm worried that recent discussions can give new players the impression that they must play it a certain way.

All styles are viable. Playing 2H is fine, just as well as playing 1h or holy mage is. Only if you are looking for the optimum for speed, then you need to really look into the details. But almost no one has unlimited credits, so the optimum isn't relevant for starting players. For me, the most fun way has been and still is to try to find my own optimum speed within my budget.

That's my 2 cents. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

That's also why I don't want a non-ethereal weapon, because of the burden on it. Preferably I'd get a weapon that would work for both 1H and DW, so I can switch whenever I feel like it.

Also, I'm just wondering; why does it matter what kind of elemental strike weapons have?

The default set for DW is main-hand ethereal club of slaughter+offhand rapier of balance. So there is no way your rapier of slaughter work for both set.
Holy and dark are stronger than the others when against SGs.

Others are not too much difference, but fiery considered the worst, cold the best among elementals. That's because types of monsters created are not evenly distributed. For example, more giants and dragonkins created meaning cold, wind, elec are better against them. Fiery is only good against undead, which is the least type of monsters players would like create. Also the most preferred shield for 1h is fire shield, whose status effect reduces cold mitigation. So cold the best among these.

This post has been edited by -vincento-: Jan 9 2019, 18:30

I didn't study the Legendary Shocking Rapier ultra carefully, but from what I checked, I believe it's worth 1m. The IW is good, not great, but it's "free" anyway. It's worth 1m at that low level even if having no IW, so he is not asking you to pay for the IW. I would buy it if I were NoliCAIKS because it matches his level and he can use it without soulfuse and resell it later.

My other point, I'm not one of the people who hypes up 1H even though I currently use it. 1H shines around level 200~250~350 but DW is very good below level 200, and DW also starts becoming good again above level 300~350. There are a number of strong DW players around.
The basic rule is, try not to spend too much more on IW than you spent to buy the rapier itself. If it's the 20k magnificent ethereal rapier you bought from my shop, you should only give it a cheap IW and accept some imperfection.

Usually it is not worth it to reforge for best element on an ethereal rapier, even an amazing legendary one. The credits cost is too high. However, on the best magnificent ethereal rapier, it is worth it to reforge for best element. Because there is a trick to reforge the final element on a magnificent ethereal weapon for cheap (salvage it and buy back from bazaar). This trick only works well on magnificent. It doesn't help much on legendary, and only wastes money on peerless.

Amazing trick!
I will try it.

Ethereal rapiers are not that bad. It's just some 1h players have too much obsession. ppl better than elementals. Anyway just don't pick fiery, due to high-level monster distribution.

Some perks and training that people say they don't regret buying, while most of them never paying off the initial expense. I'd like why they've never been serious about that.

Personal choices so I still value ethereal rapiers decent.
The very little burden won't make significant difference. Ethereal weapons are supposed to be left at IW9 instead of IW10, and you use a few holy/dark infusions while clearing SG runs.

Things they say are true, not most are not worth excessive concentration. You get what you want. One day you will go wind/elec, like most of the new players do. Who gets a fk about rapiers.

I want to know how count Elemental Strike damage.
If only one(Void Strike),Void Strike is 100% damage.

But if i have two or three(Void Strike+Dark Strike+Holy Strike ),
Void Strike can do how much %damage?
And Dark?Holy?how much %damage?


Thanks!

The default set for DW is main-hand ethereal club of slaughter+offhand rapier of balance. So there is no way your rapier of slaughter work for both set.

I disagree. When I was doing DW I was playing with a superior rapier of the nimble in the main-hand (although I think "of slaughter" would be fine too, just more DPS but less defense) and an ethereal wakizashi in the nimble for the off-hand for extra parry chance, and my DPS was pretty decent despite my main hand weapon being bad. Off-hand weapons get a 50% bonus for parry chance, which means the bonus can get extremely high.

Just for fun, I decided to calculate approximately just how good DW's damage avoidance can get, using lololo16's Legendary Savage Shadowdancer armour and this ridiculous wakizahshi I found in an old thread (74.595% chance to parry from that weapon alone, thanks to the 50% bonus for off-hand weapons).
Also, this rapier with level 40 parry upgrade would be 45.43% chance to parry.

Theoretical stat estimates, not sure if accurate: 1000 dexterity (40% parry), 1000 agility (40% evade). Also 25% evade from Shadow Veil.
1-(1-0.4543)*(1-0.4973*1.5)*(1-.4) = 91.6818949% chance to parry.
1-(1-.089)*(1-.1078)*(1-.0764)*(1-.1004)*(1-.0722)*(1-.4)*(1-.25) = 71.804431937% chance to evade.
Combined, the chance to avoid damage is: 97.654663015%.

And then, there's the attack speed bonuses as well, but I'm not sure about the formula to combine them.
That said, the attack speed bonuses are:
10% from agility bonus, 15% from 600 light armour proficiency, 22.18% from that peerless wakizashi, and 50% (action speed) from haste.

It definitely seems quite promising, although then again that is some pretty insane gear.

As for the damage numbers, I don't think it's an issue; off-hand strikes only deal 50% of the main-hand damage, so having 90% off-hand strike chance (reached with 30% accuracy on the off-hand weapon) instead of 100% (50%+ accuracy) is only a 3.33% DPS loss (1-1.45/1.5 = 0.033...). Furthermore, a large portion of the attack damage will come from the strength bonus, dexterity bonus, and shade armour, meaning that losing some damage from having nimble on the main-hand weapon instead of slaughter isn't as bad as it seems (although I think slaughter can work as well, but it sacrifices some defense).

although I think slaughter can work as well, but it sacrifices some defense.

It's your choice to play as what you want.

I'll just tell that defense is bullshit for advanced players. Advanced players always seek for more damage instead of survivability because they already have enough.

Club stuns monsters, which means monsters won't be able to parry your attacks. DW doesn't have innate overwhelming strikes as 1h does, so PFD monsters parry a lot. Parry creates counter-attack for 1h, but creates nothing beneficial for DW.
Club+Rapier gives you the most AD. What you saying, that a large portion of AD comes from armors is relatively wrong. Light Armors offer much less AD than heavy armors do. Actually very little. So AD from weapons is more important than you ever imagine.

Nimble is trash. Not a single advanced DW player uses them. Balance as offhand gives your a lot more critical chance, which is very op for DW and Niten
Agile is trash. Action speed is meaningless when it comes to Arenas. You don't even need so much speed to conquer PFD Arena. Speed only means that you get hit less every turn, doesn't meaning more damage.

It's not recommended to play other melee styles before lv350 because 1h is just so strong, fast, cheap, and secured compared to other styles before lv350. 1h gains survivability and offense simultaneously. For other styles before lv350, you just have to sacrifice one for another.

Advanced players always seek for more damage instead of survivability

Ehm, mind to rephrase that? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

Panzer VIII enters the battle (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I'll just tell that defense is bullshit for advanced players. Advanced players always seek for more damage instead of survivability because they already have enough.

please define "advanced player".

Club stuns monsters, which means monsters won't be able to parry your attacks. DW doesn't have innate overwhelming strikes as 1h does, so PFD monsters parry a lot.

Any idea what enemies' parry chance is lategame? I hadn't thought of that.

Any idea what enemies' parry chance is lategame? I hadn't thought of that.

That depends afaik completly on the chaos tokens a monster had set into Interception. With 0.5% for each point in Interception is increased ranging from 0% up to a max of 10%.

I'll just tell that defense is bullshit for advanced players. Advanced players always seek for more damage instead of survivability because they already have enough.

Bullshit.
No one has ever enough defense for late PFFEST.

I like NoliCAIKS idea to use his best weapon for both 1H and DW. I currently have that. A Legendary Rapier of Slaughter works well in DW paired with Wakizashi/Shortsword offhand. It also works decently as DW offhand, paired with Club mainhand. In reality I'm using 1H for various reasons, but it's nice to keep the DW possibility open. Higher level players need less defense but remember DW tends to need more defense than 1H. High level DW players are more likely to use Club+Rapier because it's more offensive.

no, we can't set this disagreement aside, as...you insist to put this on the calculation. by all means point out where the fallacy is. It's like saying "after spending $1000 for a raffle that you lose, you then bought the item at discounted price and said that the discount is saving even though you could buy the said item on discount anyway without doing the raffle."

it's not "hard to say for sure", the answer to that is easy, the best method is the one that gives channeling in a way that it lower or even diminish the need of mana to cast heartseeker. in this regard while none might be the best, but clearly between mine, greshnik or your playstyle, yours is on the losing end.

yeah, it's all unrelated, like how unrelated the bonus actually is if I use all channeling (which some ended up used for absorb) to cast heartseeker, as the duration would shrink to merely ~150 turn anyway.

I said that I was fine with ignoring the Heartseeker channeling itself phenomena, and in fairness I would also ignore the two channelings phenomena, and other side effects. Your original matrix table, which ignores all these phenomena, is our best agreed-upon reference so far.

I fully agree it's like your raffle analogy. But the raffle loser can indeed choose to later buy the item at discount price, if he wants to. And when he does this, can you ignore that? The discount was there and must be accounted for properly (at reduced weight like I did).

It's far from clear which mid-arena recasting style between you, me, and Greshnik is correct. For starters, we don't even know exactly what our 3 styles are, how can you say the answer is clear? We only know enough partial information to know we are different.

Indeed, the last strategy you pointed out, shrinking the utilized Heartseeker duration way down to 150 turns, is certainly within your power to do, with all the Channeling you have. (I think this similar to what Greshnik does). That's why it's such an interesting and difficult comparison.

I have already tried to imagine our 3 styles and did calculations for each, but it's very complicated. There are more factors because Regen management is also playing a key role. The answer may surprise you. Even though we have extremely different styles (evidenced by our choosing to recast Heartseeker at different thresholds) the final mana efficiency might be almost the same. I will elaborate after we can reach more agreements.

I like NoliCAIKS idea to use his best weapon for both 1H and DW.

Yeah, i have thought about something like that once. But i decided, 1H and DW want different IW. As DW you want some Overpower, as 1H you want Fat and But only. So dont you see that as a problem? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)