[X] My Assistant

"Shocking revalations"

When did all of this stop becoming common knowledge??
I just failed at basic math myself so I can't say too much (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

@qw3rty67: You're forgetting elemental mitigation.

prefix: This page hasn't been updated in 3 years!
Those final numbers should be "10% more damage" and "less than 1% worse than redwood." Damned basic math (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) But you're right, redwood has what I considered a negligibly higher amount of -res via proficiency thanks to scaling and no perk. As for the how-the-HECK-did-I-forget-about-this non negligible part, imperil+spike+infusion brings specific mit to zero on the first cast against a perfect 80mm/75sm monster, giving them 33% more damage over h/d with no proc. I doubt anybody does this, but you can cast t2 to load the proc before the initial t3 without getting hit so much, so if h/d casts disintegrate before paradise lost, they can also cut the specific mit down to zero. The extra 10mm from the holy proc on survivors doesn't make up for the extra 15sm from imperil (still short by 5% damage), and even if ele doesn't get lucky with spikes, they only need 10 from prof to get back to zero sm. H/D needs >12.5 to start outdamaging ele, for a whopping 14% more damage at 25, after dicking around with procs and getting fucked up from low cast speed, and more prof = less phase so it's going to be less than 14%.

But remember, NONE OF THIS MATTERS. ALL THAT MATTERS is killing as many enemies as possible on the first cast, and free counter resist on willow for fractions on the dinar beats <1% redwood damage every single time. H/D is only good without imperil, and that's Saudi Prince levels of cash we're talking about. The cheap pfudor options are "imperil and kill in one hit" or "imperil and kill in two hits with enough cast speed." Redwood should be better for option 2, but it has more strict gear requirements. Ele Redwood should start slightly outperforming willow at option one with enough money thrown at it, but that's a trap since the cash should be going towards a completely different no-imperil style or a set of charged gear for option 2. And I switched from elementalist to other types so I already know that doesn't cut it, at least not without very specific gear that everyone wants because cold isn't a secret anymore (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If willoak is low class, redwood middle class, but willoak again high class, that means redwood needs a buff because it's a trap and traps are gay™. Give them native cast speed or native -res or drop elementalist and give them higher profs. Something. Anything. Allowing -res to go below zero again would instantly make redwood useful. The solution to "I don't want players to spam one element only" should have been "allow monsters to hit a player casting a slow spell before it connects (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) " and "buffing explosions."

Wew, talking about mages, is Fire mage still the cheapest?
Thinking about making one (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

f4tal did log it some months ago here.
That report led me to make this analysis.

I don't think there is any other way to calculate the impact of the mitigations.
It's also quite easy because mitigations are easy to reason about.
An equipment with 5% PMI compared to no equipment means a 5% reduction of damage (from 0 to 5% or from 50 to 52.5% it's exactly 5% reduction in damage).

Going back to f4tal's analysis only holyproof seems worth the effort, every other potency would have ~0.6% overall effect even when it reaches 20% specific mitigation.
The 4% from jug is a lot better than that and that's why it's pretty much the potency to get for armors (also I was sure everyone knew that jug percentage is applied to the base value, like most of the regeneration/cure/whatever).

Mitigation is useless if it can't overcome sp damage threshold, clear case in deep grindfest.
F4tal's report should be more complicated than that.
Like average damage/hit, whichever trigger spirit shield, whichever get resisted.
If juggernaut affects base hp, somebody should update the wiki.

Alrighty. Time to reveal with I've discovered yesterday.

First off, thanks for sharing your findings with us. Second off, thank you for being detailed. Very much appreciated.

Maybe people will learn this instead of being resistant to it, and will stop fretting so much on how they IW their armor.

Seems like instead of trying to get Jug5 on every piece, it is better to just take whatever happens. If you get 3 potencies on one piece of armor, that might be worth rerolling if you want to be picky (since that would result in smaller layers). But you'll get more bang for your buck if you get a pretty even spread of elemental resistance potencies instead of super-piling on holy or something.

5 pieces of armor, two potences at 5 each = 10 potencies. With 6 elements, you'd get the most spread with two potencies on each except two which get only one. I'd guess Wind and Electric would be best candidates for those two. If you have a shield, that would let you have 12 potencies.

I wouldn't bother rerolling if you got jug5, but I wouldn't really value it above a good selection of mitigations it seems.

Wew, talking about mages, is Fire mage still the cheapest?
Thinking about making one (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

I'm curious about this one, is there any kind of class from the cheapest to the most expensive mage class? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Seems like instead of trying to get Jug5 on every piece, it is better to just take whatever happens.

My advice for mages would still be Jug5. It's health bonus and even if small, it still counts. Actually, for a full mage it's not that hard to get Jug5, just replace a couple of grindfests with IW runs.

I'm curious about this one, is there any kind of class from the cheapest to the most expensive mage class? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Yes.
Holy - most expensive (think 100's of milions rather than 10's)
Dark
Wind
Elec
Cold
Fire - cheapest (but still 20m or so to get it fired up to a nice pace)

This post has been edited by DJNoni: Jan 11 2018, 00:05

Mitigation is useless if it can't overcome sp damage threshold, clear case in deep grindfest.

What are we talking about?
For 1H (which was tested) doesn't matter, unless you're sleeping you will never run out of spirit anyway so it doesn't make any big difference.
Actually more sp damage may mean less hp lost and so less cures.
Imho unless you're dying because of sp depletion checking what triggers spirit shield is not really significant.

2H/DW and mages should be tested to see what are the splits (and different considerations may apply).

whichever get resisted.

The chance of resist does only apply to magical attacks and we have the data about those.
Resist should be around 20% for a 1H at this level, and I doubt monster chaosing makes that big of a difference.
It should be possible to revert the resist to get the unresisted magical damage.

If juggernaut affects base hp, somebody should update the wiki.

I mean that the HP gain is a percentage of base HP.
Like cure is a percentage of base HP, regen same, potion/gem is based on base HP and so on.

Alrighty. Time to reveal with I've discovered yesterday.

pretty interesting, thank you for your work.
i'll return a bit better tomorrow, but a comment on this one:

2) One single strong layer is more efficient than several small layers. Fireproof 5 will be more efficient than Fireproof 2+Fireproof 3 : 0.8 (20% mit) < 0.92 (8% mit) * 0.88 (12% mit) = 0.8096

difference does exist, but if nothing else it's not that big. it would be even (a little) bigger with 2/2/1, but i would have a hard time figuring whether it's better to go mit5 on one piece or to sink one here and one there to go for, saying, some small jug rolls.

I'm not even sure that stats like crit damage, cast speed and all sum up.

i can say crit damage (the melee one, at least) sum up, rounded to the nearest integer - for showing purposes only.
btw, don't brag the matryoshka doll thing like it was yours (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Actually more sp damage may mean less hp lost and so less cures.

How? It's same damage with more sp loss.

I meant mitigation is useless if it doesn't prevent its respective damage from triggering spirit shield. The damage threshold is 20% of max hp, which is the effective damage which force player to cure.

How? It's same damage with more sp loss.

I assumed the damage from

CODE

Your spirit shield absorbs XXX points of damage from the attack into YYY points of spirit damage

is included, but now that I think about it there are good possibilities it's not

I meant mitigation is useless if it doesn't prevent its respective damage from triggering spirit shield. The damage threshold is 20% of max hp, which is the effective damage which force player to cure.

I see, it's still better to lose 20% of max hp and 1 spirit point than 20% of max hp and 1/6 of the spirit points (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)
I also doubt that there are real breakpoints, damage is probably spread out.

What's the 'secret' about cold?

And can anyone tell me how to array monsters by class in Jenga's database? When I checked for class and write down the class name, results were none

Regarding the spirit drains, I'll just say that when you're starting to reach rounds with monsters that hit very very hard, it always feels to start being dangerous when you have to throw in spirit potions, and very very very dangerous when you start throwing spirit elixirs.

With better mitigations you'll probably still lose 20% of your HP for the most powerful attacks, but your SP drain will be significantly lower, which ultimately allows to delay the critical moment when you're starting to throw spirit potions and spirit elixirs. Basically, it will allow you to play a harder difficulty, and in other words, the mitigations would still play their role very well.

That is, considering that case ignore the not-so-powerful attacks that would stop triggering the spirit shield and the attacks that will simply remove less HP, and in that case could possibly prevent a few sparks to be triggered.

All this to say that "attacks will trigger spirit shield anyway" can't possibly be a valid reason to ignore mitigations.

Alrighty. Time to reveal with I've discovered yesterday.

I thought that stuff was coomon knowledge...
Actually, I used these in my thread that was deleted because of "wrong formulas"...

Efficiency of Juggernaut is less than 2%, as decondelite pointed out.

But it is still useful against monsters' normal attacks while elemental mitigations are almost useless.
Especially for high level mages.


Today I played 3x grindfests as elec mage and recorded logs.

CODE

Monsters' Attacks
==================================================================================================================================================
         - |   count |  miss |   evade |  parry |     hit |      damage |         SS |   damage+SS |  average |          raw |  average |   SS SP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  crushing |  17,429 |    21 |  10,868 |  1,290 |   5,250 |  18,215,145 |  1,389,442 |  19,604,587 |    3,734 |   68,939,207 |   13,131 |  20,226
  slashing |   9,344 |    10 |   5,937 |    708 |   2,689 |   9,169,848 |    889,967 |  10,059,815 |    3,741 |   30,953,277 |   11,511 |  12,954
  piercing |  17,019 |    23 |  10,626 |  1,302 |   5,068 |  17,613,226 |  1,617,576 |  19,230,802 |    3,795 |   59,171,698 |   11,676 |  23,547
      fire |     308 |       |     217 |     19 |      72 |     140,779 |            |     140,779 |    1,955 |      515,674 |    7,162 |        
      cold |     616 |       |     406 |     40 |     170 |     397,478 |         98 |     397,576 |    2,339 |    1,390,126 |    8,177 |       1
      elec |     478 |       |     331 |     27 |     120 |     270,680 |            |     270,680 |    2,256 |      832,862 |    6,941 |        
      wind |     704 |     1 |     437 |     51 |     215 |     518,845 |      1,335 |     520,180 |    2,419 |    1,600,554 |    7,444 |      18
      holy |         |       |         |        |         |             |            |             |          |              |          |        
      dark |         |       |         |        |         |             |            |             |          |              |          |        
      void |         |       |         |        |         |             |            |             |          |              |          |        
   unknown |   1,329 |       |   1,223 |    106 |         |             |            |             |          |              |          |        
       ALL |  47,227 |    55 |  30,045 |  3,543 |  13,584 |  46,326,001 |  3,898,418 |  50,224,419 |    3,697 |  163,403,398 |   12,029 |  56,746
==================================================================================================================================================

Monsters' Skills
=============================================================================================================================================
         - |  count |  miss |  evade |  parry |  hit |     damage |          SS |   damage+SS |  average |         raw |  average |    SS SP
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  crushing |    828 |       |    410 |     53 |  365 |  1,837,766 |   3,967,693 |   5,805,459 |   15,905 |  20,414,801 |   55,931 |   51,106
  slashing |    369 |       |    187 |     24 |  158 |    790,110 |   1,784,681 |   2,574,791 |   16,296 |   7,922,434 |   50,142 |   21,342
  piercing |    861 |       |    422 |     42 |  397 |  2,000,609 |   4,493,240 |   6,493,849 |   16,357 |  19,981,074 |   50,330 |   55,309
      fire |     54 |       |     27 |      2 |   25 |    126,175 |     345,875 |     472,050 |   18,882 |   1,729,121 |   69,165 |    3,914
      cold |      1 |       |        |        |    1 |      5,047 |      14,324 |      19,371 |   19,371 |      67,731 |   67,731 |      209
      elec |        |       |        |        |      |            |             |             |          |             |          |          
      wind |      8 |       |      5 |      1 |    2 |     10,094 |      18,034 |      28,128 |   14,064 |      86,548 |   43,274 |      262
      holy |     18 |       |      7 |      2 |    9 |     45,312 |      71,250 |     116,562 |   12,951 |     406,175 |   45,131 |      941
      dark |        |       |        |        |      |            |             |             |          |             |          |          
      void |        |       |        |        |      |            |             |             |          |             |          |          
   unknown |  1,200 |     1 |  1,065 |    134 |      |            |             |             |          |             |          |          
       ALL |  3,339 |     1 |  2,123 |    258 |  957 |  4,815,113 |  10,695,097 |  15,510,210 |   16,207 |  50,607,883 |   52,882 |  133,083
=============================================================================================================================================

Monsters' Spells
==========================================================================================================================================
         - |  count |  miss |  evade |  hit |  resisted |   damage |       SS |  damage+SS |  average |  resisted_raw |  average |  SS SP
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  crushing |      2 |       |        |    2 |   80.57 % |    3,993 |          |      3,993 |    1,997 |        14,816 |    7,408 |        
  slashing |        |       |        |      |           |          |          |            |          |               |          |        
  piercing |      3 |       |      1 |    2 |   58.53 % |    6,817 |    1,792 |      8,609 |    4,305 |        27,951 |   13,976 |     26
      fire |     48 |       |     26 |   22 |   61.25 % |   56,317 |   21,635 |     77,952 |    3,543 |       301,299 |   13,695 |    314
      cold |     54 |       |     29 |   25 |   61.53 % |   91,840 |   51,742 |    143,582 |    5,743 |       529,745 |   21,190 |    549
      elec |     38 |       |     15 |   23 |   75.28 % |   67,495 |   11,293 |     78,788 |    3,426 |       255,805 |   11,122 |    164
      wind |     35 |       |     15 |   20 |   68.37 % |   59,104 |   27,965 |     87,069 |    4,353 |       282,692 |   14,135 |    408
      holy |     79 |       |     33 |   46 |   65.90 % |  180,859 |  143,023 |    323,882 |    7,041 |     1,190,900 |   25,889 |  1,947
      dark |        |       |        |      |           |          |          |            |          |               |          |        
      void |      2 |       |      1 |    1 |   75.00 % |    3,446 |          |      3,446 |    3,446 |        11,188 |   11,188 |        
   unknown |    133 |     1 |    132 |      |           |          |          |            |          |               |          |        
       ALL |    394 |     1 |    252 |  141 |   66.53 % |  469,871 |  257,450 |    727,321 |    5,158 |     2,614,396 |   18,542 |  3,408
==========================================================================================================================================

CODE

Summary of received damages
================================================================
             |     Attacks |     Skills |   Spells |         ALL
================================================================
       c+p+s |  44,998,219 |  4,628,485 |   10,810 |  49,637,514
----------------------------------------------------------------
  elementals |   1,327,782 |    186,628 |  455,615 |   1,970,025
----------------------------------------------------------------
        void |             |            |    3,446 |       3,446
----------------------------------------------------------------
             |  46,326,001 |  4,815,113 |  469,871 |  51,610,985
================================================================

1. Monsters' basic attacks are physical and most of them are c/p/s. More hp helps surviving from them.
2. Most monsters are killed before they use skills or spells.
3. Elemental damages are very little (3.82%) and you should ignore magical damages (0.91%)

TL;DR

True, but also false.
Elemental may be good but as you said, a strong layer is better than many weaker layers.

Aka an overall HP tank against ALL attacks is still better than a stronger layer against only one type of damage.

Elemental damage is a small part of overall damage.
So, it's good to boost defense against elements that are more likely to hit few times but hard, to help you tank better and waste less SP

But the point is that you have to get them along with Juggernaut!

So, maybe Element1 lv 5 + Element2 lv 5 >= Juggernaut lv 5.

But (Juggernaut lv 5 + Element1 lv 5)+(Juggernaut 5 + Element2 lv 5) >> (Element1 lv 5 + Element2 lv 5)+(Element1 lv 5 + Element2 lv 5)

Indeed.


TL;DR

See what elements damage you the most, and go for Jug 5 + Element 5 if possible.

(personally, from other people's logs, I'd say elem damage is like Holy >>>>>>>> Elec >> Fire >>>> Cold >>> Dark >>>>>>>>>>>> Wind, so 2 pieces Jug5+Holy5, 1 Jug5+Fire5, 1 Jug5+Elec5 and 1 Jug+Cold/Dark is best)

I wonder if the admins add the armors potency with "SP bonus", so armor's potencies gonna be like "HP bonus +X%" ; "MP bonus +X%" ; "SP bonus +X%"....

That's gonna be nice I think...

Has anyone made a list of all equips generated by the lottery? It might help nail down some Lmax stats for my database.

I thought I already knew most or all of the things decondelite just pointed out, but probably some of them are not well explained in the wiki, or could only be in the dark corners of it.

LARD vs LAWD?
(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
which is better? (if both have good specs)

This post has been edited by ALL_MIGHT: Jan 11 2018, 09:06

LARD vs LAWD?
(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
which would be better? (if both have good specs)

LARD