[X] My Assistant

Monsters in arenas do not deal damage. Monster 400 levels above you 40 rounds deep into 200% PFUDOR The Tower might sting a little bit. Then magical mitigation may come into play, for until you manage to crowd control them, their spells could potentially "one-tap" you. That is how I see the logic behind some pieces of "of Warding" equipment.

If magic damage started becoming relevant with higher level monsters we would expect the proportion of magical damage taken to rise as monster level increases. Monsters in tower have higher level than the monsters in arenas, yet the proportions stay basically the same. Based on this data it doesn't seem like there will ever be a point when normal monsters will start dealing significant amounts of magical damage. Bosses and special enemies like the trio and the tree can deal significant amount of magical damage, but that doesn't appear to be true for normal monsters.

Also, based on what I have seen it doesn't appear to be true that there are few, but high damaging magical attacks either. I have seen normal monsters deal huge amounts of damage with physical attacks, I don't remember seeing attacks from normal monsters dealing huge damage, and these being magical attacks. There are basically 3 possible explanations for the lack of magical damage in damage reports: There are just fewer attacks dealing magical damage than attacks dealing physical damage, but both kinds deal similar damage per attack, the number of attacks is roughly the same but magical attacks deal significantly less damage, or there are very few magical attacks, but they deal huge damage. I don't believe explanations 2 and 3 are likely, probably explanation 1 is correct.

This post has been edited by EOZ1: Jul 10 2025, 16:25

...

Honestly, you should probably go poke Noni on discord. He knows what he is talking about contrary to yours truly.

In the meantime, here are some of my old Arena reports. No idea if those are actually worth anything in regard to this discussion.

Although I somewhat believe (partially based on the above-mentioned), that the explanation number 3 is the correct one. Also based on the fact that player mage builds function precisely that way. However, and I cannot stress this enough, this conversation is way above my pay grade. I am merely a humble Dual-Wield Persistent and a "basic-bitch" One-Handed Melee Isekai player. Which probably means that I should stay silent and let the "big boys" handle this one.

Arenas

This post has been edited by Ramaki: Jul 10 2025, 17:18

Honestly, you should probably go poke Noni on discord. He knows what he is talking about contrary to yours truly.

In the meantime, here are some of my old Arena reports. No idea if those are actually worth anything in regard to this discussion.

Although I somewhat believe (partially based on the above-mentioned), that the explanation number 3 is the correct one. Also based on the fact that player mage builds function precisely that way. However, and I cannot stress this enough, this conversation is way above my pay grade. I am merely a humble Dual-Wield Persistent and a "basic-bitch" One-Handed Melee Isekai player. Which probably means that I should stay silent and let the "big boys" handle this one.

Arenas

I looked at this one: https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?act=A...t&id=184655

In these arenas the magical damage/physical damage ratios are:

top left: ~0.27
top right: ~0.21
bottom left: ~0.09
bottom right: ~0.05

So in some cases you get much lower ratios than I do, and in other cases much higher. The high values in top left and top right are because you are fighting school girls, and these use magical attacks. These aren't normal monsters, so you take "a lot" of damage from magic. In the bottom left and bottom right you get much lower values. So in that data from your cases magical monster attacks look even trashier than in my example. This is expected because shield can block magical attacks, while parry can't, because you have better defenses than I do, and also because you are basically only fighting normal enemies, not school girls. In these 2 arenas you only get bosses in the very last round.

Edit: You actually are using DW, not 1H, so you aren't using a shield. Well, yeah. You are using parry and still get much lower ratios.

This post has been edited by EOZ1: Jul 10 2025, 18:41

I looked at this one: https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?act=A...t&id=184655

In these arenas the magical damage/physical damage ratios are:

top left: ~0.27
top right: ~0.21
bottom left: ~0.09
bottom right: ~0.05

So in some cases you get much lower rations than I do, and in other cases much higher. The high values in top left and top right are because you are fighting school girls, and these use magical attacks. These aren't normal monsters, so you take "a lot" of damage from magic. In the bottom left and bottom right you get much lower values. So in that data from your cases magical monster attacks look even trashier than in my example. This is expected because shield can block magical attacks, while parry can't, because you have better defenses than I do, and also because you are basically only fighting normal enemies, not school girls. In these 2 arenas you only get bosses in the very last round.

My mathematics (and I hate that thing) look at that and see 50k damage in 40~ "casts" (1200 average) versus 0,55m in 680~ attacks (800 average). Magic damage hits harder. And I am playing leather Dual-Wield. Which means 70% resist. DW Power has nothing other than parry, but we have already established that. No idea if "of Warding" is worth it in The Tower with that particular setup; I would not outright dismiss it because I have never played anything other than One-Handed melee in Isekai, and someone much more knowledgeable than me recommended the aforementioned. Perhaps what that meant was that you wear 2-3 pieces "of Warding" and the rest is either "of Protection" or "of Slaughter". Howgh.

I looked at this one: https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?act=A...t&id=184655

In these arenas the magical damage/physical damage ratios are:

top left: ~0.27
top right: ~0.21
bottom left: ~0.09
bottom right: ~0.05

So in some cases you get much lower ratios than I do, and in other cases much higher. The high values in top left and top right are because you are fighting school girls, and these use magical attacks. These aren't normal monsters, so you take "a lot" of damage from magic. In the bottom left and bottom right you get much lower values. So in that data from your cases magical monster attacks look even trashier than in my example. This is expected because shield can block magical attacks, while parry can't, because you have better defenses than I do, and also because you are basically only fighting normal enemies, not school girls. In these 2 arenas you only get bosses in the very last round.

Edit: You actually are using DW, not 1H, so you aren't using a shield. Well, yeah. You are using parry and still get much lower ratios.

problem at floor 80+ is that a single monster can hit so hard that it triggers spark, which consumes spirit, and if you run out because you get sparked again directly after it, everything fails and you get kicked out of the tower - dead.
I haven't played DW to that high yet, but mathl33t did. By using full power of warding, he got similar clear times as 1h mage. Which is crazy fast for tower floor 100. The Power gives more damage, so you don't have to re-cast imperil and weaken that often. The only tricky part, both for 1h mage and for DW at floor 80+, is surviving the 'debuff- phase'. And there, mathl33t showed, full warding really helps to survive.

it's totally true that magic attacks are only a small percentage of the incoming attacks. But with high PMIT from power + a lot of parry, only a small percentage of those attacks actually damage you. But every magic attack would hit extremely hard without warding. Can't deal with that at floor 80+. But, feel free to try it, and let us know how it goes without warding.


This post has been edited by Noni: Jul 10 2025, 19:27

My mathematics (and I hate that thing) look at that and see 50k damage in 40~ "casts" (1200 average) versus 0,55m in 680~ attacks (800 average). Magic damage hits harder. And I am playing leather Dual-Wield. Which means 70% resist. DW Power has nothing other than parry, but we have already established that. No idea if "of Warding" is worth it in The Tower with that particular setup; I would not outright dismiss it because I have never played anything other than One-Handed melee in Isekai, and someone much more knowledgeable than me recommended the aforementioned. Perhaps what that meant was that you wear 2-3 pieces "of Warding" and the rest is either "of Protection" or "of Slaughter". Howgh.

It hits somewhat harder, which is expected because players usually will focus on having high physical mitigation and high crushing/piercing/slashing mitigation, while there are many different kinds of magical damage, and odds are you don't have high specific mitigations for these. So you could say get hit by a fire spell when you have 0% specific fire mitigation, while if you get hit by a crushing/piercing/slashing attack you will always have some mitigation for these damage types. You are comparing physical attacks against which where you have say an average of 30% specific mitigation, vs magical attacks against which you could have say 10% + lower magical mitigation. Also, there is more void damage coming from magical attacks.

However you may have a point about the damage being reduced by resist. I'm not sure how exactly to factor in resist, but without more data like what is the magical mitigation, specific mitigations it's hard to conclude whether magical attacks actually hit harder. And even if they do hit harder the difference doesn't seem to be that big.

Still, these values are for DW, if somebody has 60% block the magical damage would look 60% worse than here.

It hits somewhat harder, which is expected because players usually will focus on having high physical mitigation and high crushing/piercing/slashing mitigation, while there are many different kinds of magical damage, and odds are you don't have high specific mitigations for these. So you could say get hit by a fire spell when you have 0% specific fire mitigation, while if you get hit by a crushing/piercing/slashing attack you will always have some mitigation for these damage types. You are comparing physical attacks against which where you have say an average of 30% specific mitigation, vs magical attacks against which you could have say 10% + lower magical mitigation. Also, there is more void damage coming from magical attacks.

However you may have a point about the damage being reduced by resist. I'm not sure how exactly to factor in resist, but without more data like what is the magical mitigation, specific mitigations it's hard to conclude whether magical attacks actually hit harder. And even if they do hit harder the difference doesn't seem to be that big.

Still, these values are for DW, if somebody has 60% block the magical damage would look 60% worse than here.

Noni is here. I am saved. I need not use my brain any longer (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif). Should mention that Dual-Wield Light has 80% Evade in combat. Which accounted for 16 spells and another 16 were resisted. And I do have significant Elemental mitigations. To summarise: I would be careful around spells the further you progress in The Tower. Nothing matters in normal Arenas. Only speed.

No more spam from me. The cavalry has arrived.

problem at floor 80+ is that a single monster can hit so hard that it triggers spark, which consumes spirit, and if you run out because you get sparked again directly after it, everything fails and you get kicked out of the tower - dead.
I haven't played DW to that high yet, but mathl33t did. By using full power of warding, he got similar clear times as 1h mage. Which is crazy fast for tower floor 100. The Power gives more damage, so you don't have to re-cast imperil and weaken that often. The only tricky part, both for 1h mage and for DW at floor 80+, is surviving the 'debuff- phase'. And there, mathl33t showed, full warding really helps to survive.

it's totally true that magic attacks are only a small percentage of the incoming attacks. But with high PMIT from power + a lot of parry, only a small percentage of those attacks actually damage you. But every magic attack would hit extremely hard without warding. Can't deal with that at floor 80+. But, feel free to try it, and let us know how it goes without warding.

Yes, I know this can happen, though I have seen such big hits come pretty much exclusively from physical skills (excluding bosses). From the data it is clear that it would take a lot to justify investing into magical mitigation, the magical attacks would have to be much, much more powerful than physical attacks. By focusing on magical mitigation you would be at best focusing on mitigating ~12% of the damage you take, ignoring the spirit damage etc., I'm not sure how does the spirit damage work.

I don't know, are you sure it was the warding that made the difference? I think one way to test this would be to try doing tower with low magical mitigation, low specific magical mitigations, and in one instance use no silence and in another use a lot of silence. But it would have to be a high tower floor. Ramaki here said he had high resist, so I'm not ruling out magical attacks really do deal such high damage. I would try this if I could, but I'm here suffering with niten on floor 45.

This post has been edited by EOZ1: Jul 10 2025, 19:48

Noni is here. I am saved. I need not use my brain any longer (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif). Should mention that Dual-Wield Light has 80% Evade in combat. Which accounted for 16 spells and another 16 were resisted. And I do have significant Elemental mitigations. To summarise: I would be careful around spells the further you progress in The Tower. Nothing matters in normal Arenas. Only speed.

No more spam from me. The cavalry has arrived.

DW light is of course also possible, but much slower than what mathl33t did

Yes, I know this can happen, though I have seen such big hits come pretty much exclusively from physical skills (excluding bosses). From the data it is clear that it would take a lot to justify investing into magical mitigation, the magical attacks would have to be much, much more powerful than physical attacks. By focusing on magical mitigation you would be at best focusing on mitigating ~12% of the damage you take, ignoring the spirit damage etc., I'm not sure how does the spirit damage work.

I don't know, are you sure it was the warding that made the difference? I think one way to test this would be to try doing tower with low magical mitigation, low specific magical mitigations, and in one instance use no silence and in another use a lot of silence. But it would have to be a high tower floor. Ramaki here said he had high resist, so I'm not ruling out magical attacks really do deal such high damage. I would try this if I could, but I'm here suffering with niten on floor 45.

I trust the experience of mathl33t. But feel free to test. Forge forge forge and you're good for tower. Niten is very hard to pull off, but relatively easy to switch to DW.

DW light is of course also possible, but much slower than what mathl33t did
I trust the experience of mathl33t. But feel free to test. Forge forge forge and you're good for tower. Niten is very hard to pull off, but relatively easy to switch to DW.

Is the idea with DW in tower to try to use frenzied blows in every round and hope to stun a few enemies? Comparing DW and niten, both have comparable parry because even though niten doesn't get a parry bonus it gets a parry ability instead. The attack base damage is probably a bit in favor of niten, but not far off because niten gets a bit less damage from ability. Damage to a single target is 150% for niten vs 180% for DW, but niten should in theory kill more than 1 enemy faster because of domino strike and katana 30 DOT% bleeding. But niten can equip a club for stun and frenzied blows can stun a few enemies, backstab I believe shouldn't make a big difference in tower unless spreading poison deals a lot of damage, which I doubt. Unless something weird is going on like frenzied blows hitting 10-20 times with main hand AND offhand (so effectively 20-40 strikes) skyward sword should be more effective for purely dealing damage.

Is the idea with DW in tower to try to use frenzied blows in every round and hope to stun a few enemies? Comparing DW and niten, both have comparable parry because even though niten doesn't get a parry bonus it gets a parry ability instead. The attack base damage is probably a bit in favor of niten, but not far off because niten gets a bit less damage from ability. Damage to a single target is 150% for niten vs 180% for DW, but niten should in theory kill more than 1 enemy faster because of domino strike and katana 30 DOT% bleeding. But niten can equip a club for stun and frenzied blows can stun a few enemies, backstab I believe shouldn't make a big difference in tower unless spreading poison deals a lot of damage, which I doubt. Unless something weird is going on like frenzied blows hitting 10-20 times with main hand AND offhand (so effectively 20-40 strikes) skyward sword should be more effective for purely dealing damage.

club does stun but frienzied blows does not stun.
niten parry bonus is just way too small. In isekai, reaching lv400 is possible but extremely hard, and at 400 prof you'd get 100 parry bonus, but only from your off-hand as the katana doesn't parry.
DW gives you more: The offhand weapon gets a 50% boost to its Parry. Plus, main hand has parry as well. And both can be forged.

In the end, I think niten is possible, for floor 100. But you'd need to forge a lot. And to make use of the damage, you would need power armors. But for defense, you'd need evade. Maybe power + shielding plates? Not sure what would work best.

mathl33t did pull off 2h floor 100; https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?showt...p;#entry6326587 but says it's really bad. Niten should be comparable. Maybe a little bit better because of parry.

club does stun but frienzied blows does not stun.
niten parry bonus is just way too small. In isekai, reaching lv400 is possible but extremely hard, and at 400 prof you'd get 100 parry bonus, but only from your off-hand as the katana doesn't parry.
DW gives you more: The offhand weapon gets a 50% boost to its Parry. Plus, main hand has parry as well. And both can be forged.

In the end, I think niten is possible, for floor 100. But you'd need to forge a lot. And to make use of the damage, you would need power armors. But for defense, you'd need evade. Maybe power + shielding plates? Not sure what would work best.

mathl33t did pull off 2h floor 100; https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?showt...p;#entry6326587 but says it's really bad. Niten should be comparable. Maybe a little bit better because of parry.

I don't know what's going on here, but my wakizashi has 34.83% parry chance, if I switched to DW then my parry chance with +50% bonus would have been 52.245%. Instead with niten my parry chance is 57.3%. So it's like my ability adds 22.47% parry chance, even though my 2H proficiency is 352.

It looks like the ability adds 0.625% parry chance per 10 proficiency, instead of 0.25% per 10. Perhaps there is some rounding going on, and hence 22.47%, not sure.

This post has been edited by EOZ1: Jul 11 2025, 10:45

I don't know what's going on here, but my wakizashi has 34.83% parry chance, if I switched to DW then my parry chance with +50% bonus would have been 52.245%. Instead with niten my parry chance is 57.3%. So it's like my ability adds 22.47% parry chance, even though my 2H proficiency is 352.

It looks like the ability adds 0.625% parry chance per 10 proficiency, instead of 0.25% per 10. Perhaps there is some rounding going on, and hence 22.47%, not sure.

Mayhap one of these formulas (again, mathematics is not one of my strong suits) could help shed some light on this mystery.

Character Stats
Fighting Styles
Proficiencies

Also, unless I am significantly misunderstanding something, percentages in HentaiVerse are added multiplicatively, not additively. Unsure if that plays a role in this case in particular though.

This post has been edited by Ramaki: Jul 11 2025, 12:04

Mayhap one of these formulas (again, mathematics is not one of my strong suits) could help shed some light on this mystery.

Character Stats
Fighting Styles
Proficiencies

Also, unless I am significantly misunderstanding something, percentages in HentaiVerse are added multiplicatively, not additively. Unsure if that plays a role in this case in particular though.

yep that's the effect of DEX

yep that's the effect of DEX

Yeah. So assuming the same stats and main hand having 0 parry I would have 65.7% parry with DW. That's a difference of 8.4%. It could make some difference I guess. Let's say hypothetically you were level 500 and had a wakizashi with 48% parry chance, 1000 effective dex, and 550 2H proficiency.
For DW we get: 83.2%
And for niten: 73.09%

So with best gear the difference is about 10%. The bonus from ability in the case above would be 13.75%.

Edit: Proficiencies are capped at 20% above the player's level, so actually if you had 600 2H proficiency you would have 74.34% parry with niten, so the difference would be about 9%.

This post has been edited by EOZ1: Jul 11 2025, 14:22

well the idea was that before eveything is silenced, you do get magic attacks. And as parry is the only defensive layer before damage mitigation, all magic attacks will hit. Magic damage mitigation is the only way to prevent too much damage in the start of the round. Mind you, silence has quite a long cooldown and needs 3-4 casts minimum to get everyone silenced.

88FL, 0 magic damage taken. 8 magic attacks in total, which can be fully absorbed by the absorb scroll
[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/a/BMsOoOH
I'll hold my doubt against his choice.
However, DW needs more time casting spells. Monsters would cast more spells.
Maybe warding is still useful if you're unlucky, which monsters cast 2 magic spells in a row.
Also, if DW already has excessive survivability from physical damage, then building magic defence is better.

Also, unless I am significantly misunderstanding something, percentages in HentaiVerse are added multiplicatively, not additively. Unsure if that plays a role in this case in particular though.

iirc, only counter-ressit is additive.

This post has been edited by l13763824039: Jul 13 2025, 04:08

I can pretty much afk hover iwtbh for a while now, is it possible to get to a point where I can afk hover pfudor?

I can pretty much afk hover iwtbh for a while now, is it possible to get to a point where I can afk hover pfudor?

what's the point? Why play at all if it's just mindless hovering?

but yeah 1h heavy can do mainly hovering, occasional heal / mana maybe? Playing active would be more fun and much faster: timing vital strike, OFC and imperilling everything.

I can pretty much afk hover iwtbh for a while now, is it possible to get to a point where I can afk hover pfudor?

From what I remember it's easy to "afk hover" on PFUDOR if you are using 1H (if by afk hover you also mean using heartseeker and regen), but it doesn't mean it's going to be that fast.

This post has been edited by EOZ1: Jul 14 2025, 20:52

So I found this, and switched to DW. Apparently DW has to rely on frenzied blows to deal damage, niten just deals more damage than club+wakizashi DW. Even though with bonus from ability my attack base damage was about 300 higher than with niten I was dealing less damage overall, mainly because no domino strike, but also because no big bleed and no bleed stacking. In terms of dealing damage frenzied blows is just inferior to skyward sword in terms of overcharge efficiency, that is because of increased damage due from penetrated armor and bleeding. But it's not that much worse.

But the difference in survivability is quite big, that 8-10% more parry does make a difference at high parry level, but also you can spread stun on enemies while generating charge to use frenzied blows. Overall my clear time improved a bit and it was easier because I wasn't taking so much damage.

I think niten in light armor would have potential, if you can keep hitting and aren't taking huge damage you could potentially get good clear times, but given that the limiting factor here appears to be survivability I wouldn't expect miracles. Maybe somebody would want to try that.

This post has been edited by EOZ1: Jul 15 2025, 01:03