[X] My Assistant

as usual you missed the point. haste and shadow veil stopped getting better pre lvl 200, heck last upgrade for those spell effect is at level 155. those are such a "low level" spell that some people consider those two as useless and even a handicap for high level player.

on the contrary spirit shield is getting better in the span of lvl 200-300, it's the existence of spirit shield that lvl 300 is safer than lvl 200...

Ah ok, I missed your point earlier, sorry. I was wondering but couldn't really tell what you were trying to say.

It's a good point, but just because those spells stop getting better through abilities doesn't mean their usefulness is ended. Actually, shadow veil (and spirit shield) continue to get better all the way to level 500 in terms of mana cost, due to a different (proficiency) mechanic. But that's not a big deal.

And yes, spirit shield gets better through abilities from level 200 to 300. But as I pointed out, part of the in-game description is wrong (ability upgrades don't reduce spirit drain). And the spirit cost of spirit shield continues to go down most drastically from level 300~500.

I think spirit shield is a nice spell, but it is getting best at level 450~500 in my opinion. Anyways I'm not insisting my opinion is correct, we are all free to give a different viewpoint.

SP should not be a problem merely from using spirit shield and conserving SP shouldn't be a reason to not using spirit shield and risking death.

If you have problem with SP because spirit shield proc too much, then without it you'll just die. period. If you have SP problem keeping spirit shield up, then SoL won't help you much either as it cost way more SP than spirit shield.

Generally speaking I would agree with this, but even if true that might not prove spirit shield is beyond reproach for players below level 300.

Aside from that, what you said is actually possibly not true. But this isn't worth arguing about at this juncture. Let's just agree to set this aside for now.

because with more ability level it able to absorb more damage and more frequently which converted from more sp you dense mtfkr.
it cost more SP because it works harder.

now you're just spouting nonsense...the reason higher level seems spending lower on spirit shield is because they inherently receive less damage because of having better damage avoidance and mitigation than lower level. same reason why 1h spend less on SP than mage.

Yes, spirit shield costs more with more ability upgrades because it works harder. I never said it costed more than that. It just costs the same after ability upgrades, efficiency-wise (contrary to the game description).

In my previous post I showed it's explicit in the spirit shield drain formula that your Max HP reduces the spirit drain (even though I think it's kind of foolish and shouldn't be that way). In other words, your Level outright reduces the spirit drain, all other things being equal.

But yes, your defenses and other such things also reduce the spirit drain. I misspoke when I said "sole" reason, that wasn't what I was trying to say. If you factor in everything, then actually being a higher level reduces your spirit drain "exponentially" or by a squared/cubed factor.

This post has been edited by BlueWaterSplash: Jun 9 2020, 07:46

Some get it, some don't. It's all about saving time in using draught vs saving time in cure.

Anyways I'm not insisting my opinion is correct, we are all free to give a different viewpoint.

- skip -

Actually, you ARE effectively insisting that your opinion is correct (or that is not really wrong, which just amounts to the same thing).

Anyway, the point you are missing here is another. And that is this is "Ask the Experts" thread, not "personal opinions, experiences and theories" thread.

What I mean here, to be more explicit, is that here people answering questions should not give advice on what they do, their personal experience or what they think is better; they should answer with GENERALLY ACCEPTED CONSENSUS about HV.

If you add some personal facts, or say something on which there is not still a wide agreement, you should clearly indicate that.

Just repeating that, contrary to the opinion of the vast majority of long-time players of HV, you know something is true ... you can possibly do that in other threads, not here. Doing it here is wrong.

Btw, citing unidentified "new players" (i.e., inexperienced ones, or brief-lived chimerae) to support your wild theories is not a good practice, also.

You are entitled to your opinions, obviously. Just like those crazy "flat-earth" people are entitled to theirs. They're just not allowed in seriuos consensus-led discussions.

For the records, I think your counsels about Spirit Shield are harmful and wrong, based on my own (still much fresh) low-level experience (GS-less). As soon as I got SS, I put it in the first IA slot.
It's not just useful, it's absolutely NECESSARY if you want to be able to play on higher difficulty without dying (or having to flee, or have to chug Health buffs like crazy after SoL triggers).

The difference between your personal opinion and my personal opinion should be clear to everyone with some mind : my personal opinion is in agreement with a vast number of other experienced persona opinions (that all together build a large user-base consensus); while yours is quite isolated, and won't progress to even a minority consensus because there is no hard-facts convincing evidence to support it, just a stream of utterances from you.

Well, we have trashed this thread enough it seems; now I'll silence myself. Don't bother to reply, I'm not posting anymore here.

Good luck with your playstyle (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I don't agree with any of what you wrote. This is a philosophical disagreement regarding how we answer questions and the purpose of this thread; nothing related to the mechanics of this game.

The consensus means little to me, and I do not even believe a consensus exists on the point in question. Any 1H user not using spirit shield breaks the consensus, and any 1H user using haste also breaks the consensus: there are plenty. There will exist issues with no consensus.

There is plenty of data to support my position. A whole thread exists containing my tests of haste and shadow veil, and how much they actually hurt 1H players (very little, if any). This was accompanied by game mechanic explanations of why the loss did not equal what the majority of players expected.

I don't know if you use haste and/or shadow veil, but my position is not that spirit shield is useless, just not as good at low level compared to haste and shadow veil.

God damned blue, go search your attention somewhereelse. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

enough already.

It's a good point, but just because those spells stop getting better through abilities doesn't mean their usefulness is ended.

Haste/SV's usefulness ended when they become hindrance instead of necessity for higher level people with good equip. That's a valid reason to stop using them when anybody reach that point.
Your argument of not using SS solely because the spell mechanic suck and it would meant you'll have more MP and SP reserve at your disposal without mentioning that it outright stripping one layer of your crucial defense is not.

Generally speaking I would agree with this, but even if true that might not prove spirit shield is beyond reproach for players below level 300.

I don't know if you use haste and/or shadow veil, but my position is not that spirit shield is useless, just not as good at low level compared to haste and shadow veil.

the one who you told to not using it was lvl 320, uncle stu's post rebuking you clearly state SS after lvl 285, and that before that point he might agree that it sucks (eventhough for - what I believe - a wrong reason), now you wants to focus only to low level player below lvl 300? get real.

Aside from that, what you said is actually possibly not true. But this isn't worth arguing about at this juncture. Let's just agree to set this aside for now.
Yes, spirit shield costs more with more ability upgrades because it works harder. I never said it costed more than that. It just costs the same after ability upgrades, efficiency-wise (contrary to the game description).

In my previous post I showed it's explicit in the spirit shield drain formula that your Max HP reduces the spirit drain (even though I think it's kind of foolish and shouldn't be that way). In other words, your Level outright reduces the spirit drain, all other things being equal.

Dude now you're just saying the other side is possibly wrong without giving any rebutal then move the goalpost.
This is never about whether the SS spell mechanic suck or not, this is about you telling a lvl 320 to not using spirit shield without giving reasonable basis.
I could mention dozens of suck stuff at HV, melee suck as they're slow, mage suck as they're expensive, what are you going to do next? telling people to play the game naked by not using any of them?

- edit
woops, didn't see noni's post

This post has been edited by Fudo Masamune: Jun 9 2020, 21:52

Having gotten past level 100, I’m starting to get acquainted with boss-class monsters.

In the Endgame arena, I was able to cope with a boss pretty well, even getting it stunned multiple times. However, Konata and her minion boss in the Ring of Blood seem unbeatable with any of the tactics I have learned so far.

I am not even trying to do it fast, just to survive against single spells that do way more damage than half of my hit points total. The best idea I’ve come up with so far is using a scroll of life as a life ring. However, in the Endgame, I did not even need it, so it was wasted; in the Ring of Blood, I would need at least two or three for the whole round, which apparently cannot be done.

Please share some time-honored means of withstanding boss attacks. Is there, for instance, some simple method of making sure their spirit bars cannot reach 100%? If the wiki has something on this, I have been looking in all the wrong places.

The first i notice, btw in your signature and not even in your post. You did outlevel your equipment. I mean you are level 105 while your weapon is 53 and your shield even just 49. I didnt checked the rest of your equipment, but i am sure it is the same. Btw when you get a weapon that is much closer to your level, dont go for a club, you play 1H, your counter attacks allready stun a lot of monster, go for a rapier, or a short sword, maybe even for a waki, just dont for an, you would really regret the lack of parry it does give you. And for the future keep in mind to not outlevel your equipment so much. With the same equipment but closer to your level, i bet, konata wouldnt be a problem to you. Also it is not so important to play RoB on higher difficulty, when you have problems with it at the difficutly you are playing now, just lower it to one you can easy deal with. There is no reason to risk to waste the Blood Token by loosing the battle. I would also suggest to check if you did upgrade and set your abilities.

If you have any follow up questions, you are welcome to ask them. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

This post has been edited by Uncle Stu: Jun 9 2020, 23:02

Uh... I know I have outleveled my equipment, but not nearly as much as you think.

you are level 105 while your weapon is 53 and your shield even just 49. I didnt checked the rest of your equipment, but i am sure it is the same.

Those are weapons from my inventory I’m offering to beginners on lower levels (a faint hope to find buyers, but the related correspondence could be interesting). What I use the most nowadays are a lv96 sword and a lv77 shield. True, my leather armor is clearly weaker than those two, but includes one lv96 piece and two soulbound pieces, so it’s likely somewhere in the middle range between how weak you assumed and what it should be for optimal gameplay.

it is not so important to play RoB on higher difficulty, when you have problems with it at the difficutly you are playing now, just lower it to one you can easy deal with.

I’m playing on normal most of the time, and certainly so when I enter any of the tougher arenas, not to mention the RoB (which I have only tried twice or thrice), so lowering is not an option.

That is why I do think I’m doing something wrong, in addition to using semi-outleveled equipment. You did not comment my question about the bosses’ spirit bars in any way. You should remember that I have not seen enemies with those red bars before, so they really make me wonder. But I might be looking for the wrong answers.

This post has been edited by Katajanmarja: Jun 10 2020, 00:11

The first i notice, btw in your signature and not even in your post. You did outlevel your equipment. I mean you are level 105 while your weapon is 53 and your shield even just 49.
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Uncle, read all well ! Those equips in his signature, he is trying to sell them to other low level players; I bet they are not what he is using. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Edit : whoops, he just posted while I was postint too, and ... it turns out my bet was correct (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

This post has been edited by mundomuñeca: Jun 10 2020, 00:05

That is why I do think I’m doing something wrong, in addition to using semi-outleveled equipment. You did not comment my question about the bosses’ spirit bars in any way. You should remember that I have not seen enemies with those red bars before, so they really make me wonder. But I might be looking for the wrong answers.

You can't stop it from filling, but you can use silence to stop them from casting their SP attacks (as long as it lasts). I'm assuming you're using protection, in which case... it probably does come down to things like equipment, or at least abilities (they're definitely up to date and slotted, right?), if you're being one-shot by boss monsters.

They are pretty dangerous at low level, admittedly. But I don't think you should be having so much trouble that you're forced to use silence, especially if you're playing 1H.

- skip -

Please share some time-honored means of withstanding boss attacks. Is there, for instance, some simple method of making sure their spirit bars cannot reach 100%? If the wiki has something on this, I have been looking in all the wrong places.

Stron spirit attacks will not be a problem when you'll reach the level where you gain Spirit Shield ability.

In the meantime, to mitigate the problem, try to keep the Health bar always near the maximum (with regen, health draught and if necessary health potion or casting cure.
That way you should be fine doing it on Normal even with your equip.

When I was below L.200, I also used to throw in a Scroll of Absorption at the start of a RoB; it is cheap, and can sometimes intercept dangerous blows saving your Health.

Don't be afraid to use SoL, cast it instead of using a scroll, then use a Mana draught; it costs much less then a Scroll of life and your mana will be quickly recovered.

As Uncle says, check in the Abilities page that use have slotted and upgraded all the useful ones; this is VERY important to check every 5-10 levels, since an already slotted ability may have reached a point where it can be upgraded again.

Good luck (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

EDIT : as Lestion says, you can also use Silence. In RoB against a single boss, also Blind is effective.

This post has been edited by mundomuñeca: Jun 10 2020, 00:29

Uh... I know I have outleveled my equipment, but not nearly as much as you think.
Those are weapons from my inventory I’m offering to beginners on lower levels (a faint hope to find buyers, but the related correspondence could be interesting).

Hm? Oh, i am sorry that was my mistake. I never thought someone would use his signature to find a buyer for superior equipment. And at least the club and the kite shield isnt even good equipment. I mean not even for superior. I would show you, but of course like allways when i need it i only get an error message from the Live Percentile Ranges. Well i guess it doesnt matter.

What I use the most nowadays are a lv96 sword and a lv77 shield.

Okay, of the Vampire is a useless suffix. And your shield is pre 0.82 and a kite shield. So when i now think about it, all the stuff you try to sell is pre 0.82. Aka outdated. Well no wonder those stats were so bad. Every low level player should be able to drop better stuff. Just saying.

True, my leather armor is clearly weaker than those two, but includes one lv96 piece and two soulbound pieces, so it should be somewhere in the middle range between what you assumed and what it should be for optimal gameplay.

Ehm, you did soulfuse plain leather armor? Ehm, sorry to tell you, but those soul fragments are wasted. You really shouldnt soulfuse anything that is plain leather or plate or that is below Mag tier.

I’m playing on normal most of the time, and certainly so when I enter any of the tougher arenas, not to mention the RoB (which I have only tried twice or thrice), so lowering is not an option.

So you play everything on normal but you have problems. Well, first i suggest to get a better shield, Nearly anything that would now for you should be better. And that does include Buckler or Force Shield, i suggest Force Shield for the higher block chance. And FYI playing 1H with light armor isnt the most effective, it shouldnt make you so weak that konata is not beatable, but still it is something you may keep in mind.

That is why I do think I’m doing something wrong, in addition to using semi-outleveled equipment.

Well could you show me your abilities set? And your Attributes?

You did not comment my question about the bosses’ spirit bars in any way. You should remember that I have not seen enemies with those red bars before, so they really make me wonder. But I might be looking for the wrong answers.

No, there isnt any way to prevent that. At least not that i know of. I know those spirit attacks can hurt, but they shouldnt at normal difficulty. At least not enough to nearly kill you with one hit. So i assume the problem is even more pre 0.82 equipment as your shield. Do you use protection, regen and heartseeker during battle? And what about the spirit stance?

Thank you all, that was a lot of good suggestions. The main problem could be that while I have spent points on them, I know way too little about abilities. After all, I mostly do random encounters, and there it seems easy enough to survive without understanding half of the game.

For now, I am not going to go on and point out all the mistakes I am doing; I wish you can forgive that. Rather, I am going to contemplate and read more wiki, now that I know better where to look. The boss list was not the right place, that’s for sure.

Some of my "mistakes" are related to personal preferences. For example, I really like to go for a fighting style where I evade or parry rather than take hits – but well, this is not the only game where tanking is the default.

However, most of my mistakes do stem from ignorance.

Neither drops nor the bazaar seem to offer much good equipment. I do drop good amounts of superior plate and cotton, but that’s about it. Yeah, I know... shopping at Decondelite’s...

Thank you all once more, you did help a lot.

Thank you all, that was a lot of good suggestions.

You are welcome. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

it seems easy enough to survive without understanding half of the game.

Well that is what this topic is here to fix. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

For now, I am not going to go on and point out all the mistakes I am doing; I wish you can forgive that.

No need to point them out and no need to ask for forgiveness. Fix what was wrong and have fun with the game is all that is needed.

The boss list was not the right place, that’s for sure.

Yeah, well, the problem is this, under normal circumstances they are even much weaker as the rest of the monster who are player created.

Some of my "mistakes" are related to personal preferences. For example, I really like to go for a fighting style where I evade or parry rather than take hits – but well, this is not the only game where tanking is the default.

Well if you like parry and evade, you maybe want to go for DW. Two weapons give you a lot of parry and the leather/later shade will give you a lot of evade.

Neither drops nor the bazaar seem to offer much good equipment.

You really should not waste your credits on the bazaar.

Yeah, I know... shopping at Decondelite’s...

I would never said that. And i mean it.

Thank you all once more, you did help a lot.

If you need anymore help, you know where to ask. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

...

Don't worry - the game terminology is a bit strange compared to many other games (we have skills, spells, abilities and these are all separate things!). Abilities are mostly just extra stats or slight modifiers to skills & spells, some of which scale with proficiency, some of which are just flat bonuses.

At your level - don't worry too much about equipment. You can definitely survive fine on self-drops, although the FreeSHop may be of some use to you. The bazaar prices are massively inflated and will rarely be of any use to you either, due to level scaling.

If you like avoidance as your primary defense, dual-wield, niten-ichiryu and two-handed styles all traditionally use light armor and survive on that. (One-handed tends to use heavy armor because block is basically equivocal with evasion in effect, and heavy offers much stronger damage.) At your level, two-hand is pretty good too!

There are also some players who like to play one-handed with light armor - it offers incredible avoidance and survivability, although it comes at the cost of a lot of damage, and doesn't scale up very well later on when monsters start to get really tanky. It's also kind of antithetical to the strength of one-hand - counters, because evasion happens before the blocks or parries which trigger counter-attacks.

Finally: you can also consider attack speed a form of avoidance (it makes you faster relative to the monsters, meaning they'll attack you less often). The light melee styles make use of this.

This post has been edited by lestion: Jun 10 2020, 02:16

(we have skills, spells, abilities and these are all separate things!)

Imo the whole aura system was much more confusing. Who remembers GameSpy? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

when i now think about it, all the stuff you try to sell is pre 0.82. Aka outdated. Well no wonder those stats were so bad.

Wait... why do I keep dropping "pre 0.82" equipment?

You are referring to some earlier version of the game, aren’t you? I have heard about that here and there. I only started playing this year.

I have indeed bought two pieces of equipment from another player. Maybe he just wanted to get rid of his outdated gear dropped a long time ago. But what about the rest?

There must be something I am not getting at all here, so please enlighten me about "pre 0.82".

Wait... why do I keep dropping "pre 0.82" equipment?

You are referring to some earlier version of the game, aren’t you? I have heard about that here and there. I only started playing this year.

I have indeed bought two pieces of equipment from another player. Maybe he just wanted to get rid of his outdated gear dropped a long time ago. But what about the rest?

There must be something I am not getting at all here, so please enlighten me about "pre 0.82".

No, all the ones in your signature are post-0.82 equipments. It seems like it was just one piece (an old shield Uncle showed me earlier).