[X] My Assistant

Anything else? Haste, for example?

Well you could use haste and/or shadow veil, but both i would only suggest to use when they allow you to play something you otherwhise wouldnt be able to. When you dont need them, dont use them.

Wonder which elemental build is better for dwd?
4+1 cotton or 5 phases?

Well you could use haste and/or shadow veil, but both i would only suggest to use when they allow you to play something you otherwhise wouldnt be able to. When you dont need them, dont use them.

Yeah, seems like it. Did a test on 100 Round Arena without Haste and while it was faster until round 80 because I could maintain permanent spirit stance, after that I had to cast Cure more often than before, I guess I'll keep it in the meantime for the last rounds. Thanks for the answer.

This post has been edited by Bedbin: Jun 8 2020, 09:42

Wonder which elemental build is better for dwd?
4+1 cotton or 5 phases?

For Holy and Dark, your average player needs the usual 3+2 build. And then a Lvl500 player with strong profs, or a (<Lvl500) player with (expensive) radiants can go for a 4+1.
For elemental, anything that obliterates the SGs elementl mitigation will do. So I'll assume that the "regular" arena build is the appropriate one.

I'd really like to emphasize on the proficiencies here. The gain obtained by the usage of more EDB (and MDB in the case of Radiants) instead of proficiency can easily be negated by the SG-less rounds in the beginning as well as Konata. The optimal is reached (roughly) when Konata takes barely any less hits to kill than the other 4 SGs.

This post has been edited by decondelite: Jun 8 2020, 10:09

Yeah, seems like it. Did a test on 100 Round Arena without Haste and while it was faster until round 80 because I could maintain permanent spirit stance, after that I had to cast Cure more often than before, I guess I'll keep it in the meantime for the last rounds. Thanks for the answer.

When you want to mantain permanent spirit stance, get more parry and get more block and keep in mind more Dex means also more parry.

Wonder which elemental build is better for dwd?
4+1 cotton or 5 phases?

standard 4+1, schoolgirls all have 75 mitigation to all elements (except konata who has -1 wind mitigation)

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Thanks for your advice on 1H mage, I'm not expecting to finish PFFEST with such a "little" investment, that was because I only saved ~20m so far and it's not enough to make my cold mage set(I've just bought 4 charged phase and one plain cotton shoes) to finish the PFFEST, right?

So I just plan to save more money by GF(as 1H mage is a much cheaper way than normal mage) until I can forge my charged set can do it.

I have DD1 and I will try 3+2(gloves & shoes) on 1H mage later as your suggested. Hope it works (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thanks for your advice on 1H mage, I'm not expecting to finish PFFEST with such a "little" investment, that was because I only saved ~20m so far and it's not enough to make my cold mage set(I've just bought 4 charged phase and one plain cotton shoes) to finish the PFFEST, right?

try doing 100 round PFIW (375pxp+ equip), that's a decent benchmark to test whether your build might survive pffest.
anything less than comfortable there should be a red flag for trying to clear pffest.
if you could clear it comfortably, at least you should be right on the starting line to challenge the last third (round 700) of pffest.

This post has been edited by Fudo Masamune: Jun 8 2020, 18:25

If you're tight on budget, you should rather just buff up your 1H set, to be honest.
1H mage to clear PFFEST will never be cheap. If anything, it's way more expensive than building a basic staff mage set to clear arenas.

Which spells should I be casting as 1H Heavy at the start of a battle? I currently use Regen + Heartseeker and I have Spark of Life, Spirit Shield and Protection on Auto-Cast. Anything else? Haste, for example? Current character stats:

I recommend the usage of Haste and/or Shadow Veil, and advise you not to use Spirit Shield. Either Haste or Shadow Veil alone will provide more defense than Spirit Shield.

Most players who give advice are level 500 and either forgot what it was like at a lower level, or never played differently from their current setup. Spirit Shield is poor at least through level ~390 where I'm at now. But I can feel that as level increases, Spirit Shield gets better. It's difficult to understand but the Spirit Shield formula shows that its spirit drain drops with level, so it's better on high level players.

Spirit Stance drain also drops with level for different reasons, and high level players are more likely to have a gold star which increases your SP regeneration: these things all contribute to giving a high level player more spirit to work with.

If you turn off Spirit Shield you will find that both your mana and spirit reserves increase significantly. If you use Haste, your mana reserves will increase further, because Haste itself conserves mana, effectively being a free spell if you choose to use it.

This post has been edited by BlueWaterSplash: Jun 8 2020, 19:13

advise you not to use Spirit Shield.
...
Spirit Shield is poor at least through level ~390 where I'm at now.

Bullshit. Spirit shield is fine after maxing the Stronger Spirit ability at Level 285. Before that i admit it can see as a burden because of the potential high SP usage. But i did play with spirit shield at lower level during a time when the number of consumables we could use were very limited -and i am talking here about 15 during a whole battle with maxed pack rat training for the whole battle you had to choose before the battle- and never had any problem.

high level players are more likely to have a gold star which increases your SP regeneration

As if that ever was actually a big deal. It may sounds like it, because natural regeneration is doubled, but unless you have allready a few autocast slots and are playing as a very conservative 1H player, that difference means for mana maybe using a single mana draught less in long battle. And for SP? Well when you still have a high SP usage from spirit shield and/or SoL a few more SP regenerated in battle doesnt mean anything.

these things all contribute to giving a high level player more spirit to work with.

High level player have usually more SP to work with because they have overall much more Effective Primary Stats which is equal to more SP. Five points in any stat mean another SP. And you dont even mention where SP actually do come from? Your research does really lack some simple facts doesnt it?

And the most simple fact is also, higher player usually use less SP, because of higher evade, parry, block and mitigations, which allow them to avoid much more damage. So in the end, high SP usage is for lower level player just a prices they have to pay for playing on a difficulty they may not actually be ready to play at. Suggesting them to stop using something that helps them stay alive, because of SP cost, is just bad advice.

Either Haste or Shadow Veil alone will provide more defense than Spirit Shield.

Most players who give advice are level 500 and either forgot what it was like at a lower level,

clearly you're the one who forgot that spirit shield is literally the only difference in defense buff spell for lvl 200 and lvl 300 (regen is not included).
coincidentally that's the range where defense tested the most, people could start considering doing PF difficulty, and closer to lvl 300 is where people could gradually switch to more offense oriented setup.

If you turn off Spirit Shield you will find that both your mana and spirit reserves increase significantly.

if you see the need to not using spirit shield merely for conserving MP and SP, then you fail at this game.

This post has been edited by Fudo Masamune: Jun 8 2020, 20:54

Spirit shield is fine after maxing the Stronger Spirit ability at Level 285. Before that i admit it can see as a burden because of the potential high SP usage.

It may sounds like it, because natural regeneration is doubled, but unless you have already a few autocast slots and are playing as a very conservative 1H player, that difference means for mana maybe using a single mana draught less in long battle.

So in the end, high SP usage is for lower level player just a prices they have to pay for playing on a difficulty they may not actually be ready to play at. Suggesting them to stop using something that helps them stay alive, because of SP cost, is just bad advice.

Some of this is the same advice given when I was around level 200~350 so I had tested it, and found it was wrong. I used a ton of SP even after learning all the spirit shield abilities. It was then that I realized the true source of spirit problems is simply the Spirit Shield drain formula, which favors players level 400~500.

I agree, at level 300~400 the difference in spirit and mana draught usage could be just 1~3 draughts per battle. It won't break your bank. But as I've also recently learned, using just 1~3 draughts per battle costs you precious time. It's why Fudo and I experienced time gain using haste in IW or grindfest, because we cured less. We saved as much time as butcher gives us (if haste is scaled down to swift strike).

If you even use 1~3 mana draughts per arena, that actually wastes the same time (1~2 seconds) as a butcher on weapon would give you.

I don't agree that the high SP is just a price they have to pay. Just cast haste and/or shadow veil. Each of those would make a player so much tougher than spirit shield helps them, and are very easy to maintain. Shadow Veil just costs mana, and Haste is totally free. The lost time from using each of those is much less than previously believed, and could be less than the time wasted using 1~3 mana draughts and 1~3 spirit draughts.

I'm not the only player who decided spirit shield sucks in the low level range and avoided it entirely. It became common with a number of low level players who came a bit after me, for a while.

you're the one who forgot that spirit shield is literally the only difference in defense buff spell for lvl 200 and lvl 300.
coincidentally that's the range where defense tested the most, people could start considering doing PF difficulty, and closer to lvl 300 is where people could gradually switch to more offense oriented setup

What about haste and shadow veil? I am not saying a player cannot use spirit shield. I am saying that in my opinion, spirit shield is the last defense buff spell to be chosen, even for 1H style. Haste and shadow veil are better and if you can survive with just one or both of those, you don't need spirit shield.

Spirit Damage = Base_SP * SS_AP_Damage * MIN( (Damage - Max_HP * SS_AP_Damage) / (Max_HP * SS_AP_Damage * 3) , 1)

(SS_AP_Damage = percentage of damage required for Spirit shield to kick in)

By the way, I went through this 2 years ago, but training Spirit Shield ability actually does not reduce the amount of spirit drain as the game says. In reality it just increases it greatly.

The above formula in most cases reduces to Spirit Damage = Base_SP * SS_AP_Damage * (Damage - Max_HP * SS_AP_Damage) / (Max_HP * SS_AP_Damage * 3) which reworded is equivalent to Percentage of Base Spirit Lost = Damage Absorbed / 3 * HP

That 3 * HP factor is huge and is the sole reason why spirit drain is less at high level. It has nothing to do with spirit shield training.

In fact at low level, I had found that spirit shield works better untrained or at low training, because it will use up less of your spirit that way, and activate only when needed to prevent death. Sort of like a weird replacement for Spark of Life.

This post has been edited by BlueWaterSplash: Jun 8 2020, 21:42

Some of this is the same advice given when I was around level 200~350 so I had tested it, and found it was wrong. I used a ton of SP even after learning all the spirit shield abilities. It was then that I realized the true source of spirit problems is simply the Spirit Shield drain formula, which favors players level 400~500.

Wrong. The source of high spirit usage and why it does look like just been high level would fix the problem is -btw how how practical- in the sentence you didnt quote.

And the most simple fact is also, higher player usually use less SP, because of higher evade, parry, block and mitigations, which allow them to avoid much more damage. So in the end, high SP usage is for lower level player just a prices they have to pay for playing on a difficulty they may not actually be ready to play at.

Get more mitigation, parry, evade, block depending on your playstyle and you will be completly fine. When will player usually reach their highes mitigation, parry, evade and block? Right, 400~500.

I agree, at level 300~400 the difference in spirit and mana draught usage could be just 1~3 draughts per battle. It won't break your bank.

Even 10 draught wouldnt matter, they are cheap and they drop like crazy. If you really worry about your draught and not just have fun in optimization, something that doesnt really have anything to do with the original question, how many draught you need doesnt matter.

But as I've also recently learned,

Learned is a strong word in this case.

using just 1~3 draughts per battle costs you precious time. It's why Fudo and I experienced time gain using haste in IW or grindfest, because we cured less. We saved as much time as butcher gives us (if haste is scaled down to swift strike).

Precious time? Using draught cost precious time? What the hell are you on about? And what the hell has that to do anything with the original question and i may remind you, has long been answered and was actually.

Which spells should I be casting as 1H Heavy at the start of a battle? I currently use Regen + Heartseeker and I have Spark of Life, Spirit Shield and Protection on Auto-Cast. Anything else? Haste, for example

See? There is no connection to what you are mumbeling right now. I mean in the end you even contradicts yourself, by first suggestion to use haste and SV instead of spirit shield to "save" mana. And now using three draught is a disaster that cost precious time? Well lets see, when i use only spirit shield in autocast it cost me 0.57 MP/round, haste and SV cost 2.59 MP/round. Yeah, i cant see how one could save mana that way.

If you even use 1~3 mana draughts per arena, that actually wastes the same time (1~2 seconds) as a butcher on weapon would give you.

I don't agree that the high SP is just a price they have to pay. Just cast haste and/or shadow veil. Each of those would make a player so much tougher than spirit shield helps them, and are very easy to maintain. Shadow Veil just costs mana, and Haste is totally free. The lost time from using each of those is much less than previously believed, and could be less than the time wasted using 1~3 mana draughts and 1~3 spirit draughts.

*sigh* Could you please finally keep your theorizing out of the experts topic?

I'm not the only player who decided spirit shield sucks in the low level range and avoided it entirely. It became common with a number of low level players who came a bit after me,

Throne help us.

for a while.

Oh thank throne. And let me guess, that they only did follow your advice your a while didnt made your think.

What about haste and shadow veil? I am not saying a player cannot use spirit shield.

No, you are just saying that it is terrible and low level player shouldnt use it at all, in a topic where people who search for advice and dont know much about the game and its mechanics are reading. Which is much worse imo.

I am saying that in my opinion,

And opinion mostly people dont share and one you do spread like a fact.

spirit shield is the last defense buff spell to be chosen, even for 1H style. Haste and shadow veil are better

No. Have and Shaodw veil are not better and should only be used when it allows one to play something he would otherwhise not be able to. If you can play it without them, you should do it. Protection and Spirit Shield are even the only two spells i have as auto cast in my 1H set for years now.

and if you can survive with just one or both of those, you don't need spirit shield.

You are unbelievable. First using draughts and "wasting" seconds -imo more like the fraction of a second per draught- and now you suggest 1H player to use haste and shadow veil, something that does actually reduce their possible number of counter attacks, which not just does reduce their overall damage output, no it also makes it much harder to contain perma stance. Do you try to get the darwin award for the worste advice possible?

My theorycrafting isn't the issue here, it is your disagreement with my opinions on haste, shadow veil, and spirit shield. The theorycrafting is in another thread.

Giving advice to players is based on theory, experiments, and our personal experiences. If you don't want to consider the newer theories and supporting data that's fine, but our opinions and recommendations may thus disagree.

I don't know if the group of players who chose not to use spirit shield while below level 400 were influenced by me or not, but they did all experiment for themselves to arrive at that conclusion. And there are other veteran players like Fudo and sssss2 who had long used haste together with spirit shield when they had been playing 1H style previously.

I don't see anything wrong with some debate and disagreement with our advice. And no matter what I currently think, it's good that others state differing opinions, because I might later decide I'm wrong.

I agree, at level 300~400 the difference in spirit and mana draught usage could be just 1~3 draughts per battle. It won't break your bank. But as I've also recently learned, using just 1~3 draughts per battle costs you precious time. It's why Fudo and I experienced time gain using haste in IW or grindfest, because we cured less. We saved as much time as butcher gives us (if haste is scaled down to swift strike).

don't cite my run to support your flawed idea, as that wasn't my point back then.

What about haste and shadow veil? I am not saying a player cannot use spirit shield. I am saying that in my opinion, spirit shield is the last defense buff spell to be chosen, even for 1H style. Haste and shadow veil are better and if you can survive with just one or both of those, you don't need spirit shield.

as usual you missed the point.
haste and shadow veil stopped getting better pre lvl 200, heck last upgrade for those spell effect is at level 155, I even link you the ability page to check it yourself when the last upgrade for any defense oriented spell is.
those are such a "low level" spell that some people consider those two as useless and even a handicap for high level player.
on the contrary spirit shield is getting better in the span of lvl 200-300, it's the existence of spirit shield that lvl 300 is safer than lvl 200, that closing to lvl 300 you could dismiss those plate and warding in exchange of slaughter set, that at lvl 300 you could start regularly playing on pfudor and not getting one shotted by every void spirit attack that slip in and your shadow veil and haste can do jackshit about.

You're clearly put your priority backward, you could try surviving with just spirit shield and no haste+shadow veil, just using haste+shadow veil and no spirit shield is tempting your fate.

In fact at low level, I had found that spirit shield works better untrained or at low training, because it will use up less of your spirit that way,

this is why I said you fail at this.
SP should not be a problem merely from using spirit shield and conserving SP shouldn't be a reason to not using spirit shield and risking death.
If you have problem with SP because spirit shield proc too much, then without it you'll just die. period. because what spirit shield mitigate are stuff that already bypass every damage avoidance and mitigation you have except spark of life. If you have SP problem keeping spirit shield up, then SoL won't help you much either as it cost way more SP than spirit shield.

training Spirit Shield ability actually does not reduce the amount of spirit drain as the game says. In reality it just increases it greatly.

because with more ability level it able to absorb more damage and more frequently which converted from more sp you dense mtfkr.
it cost more SP because it works harder.

That 3 * HP factor is huge and is the sole reason why spirit drain is less at high level. It has nothing to do with spirit shield training.

now you're just spouting nonsense, if that's the only reason, then mage should have same or even lower spirit cost than 1h as they don't need to spend SP except for spirit shield and SoL, but in reality it's not - mage bleed SP faster than any 1h at their level, why? because mage have worse defense than 1h.
the reason higher level seems spending lower on spirit shield is because they inherently receive less damage because of having better damage avoidance and mitigation than lower level. same reason why 1h spend less on SP than mage.

This post has been edited by Fudo Masamune: Jun 9 2020, 00:42

After playing for many years casually, and never reading the wiki, I still have no idea what am I doing. How bad does it look?
[files.catbox.moe] https://files.catbox.moe/m5heli.jpg

After playing for many years casually, and never reading the wiki, I still have no idea what am I doing. How bad does it look?

Well lets have a look. Hm, you play 2H with heavy armor? That is not really a optimal build, i would suggest to switch to 1H, of if you want to keep the 2H weapon switch the armor to light. Also i would say dont train any more level of assimilator, it is just not worth it for you. Instead you really should train drop trainings you actually increase your income, like scavenger, luck of the draw, quartermaster and archaelogist. But only train to up to a level you feel like you can easy afford the credits. Also you really should use your chaos tokens to open up more monsterslots. Upgrading monster is only something you should do when you have all or at least a lot more than four monsterslots. That would be all i can see right now. If you still have some question, i suggest to ask more specific follow up question. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

To add on, your stat distribution could be better.
Strength gives
1 point = +2 to Physical Damage formula
1 point = +0.5 to the Physical Crit Chance formula
While Dexterity gives this
1 point = +1 to Physical Damage formula
1 point = +1 to the Physical Crit Chance formula
Both also increase your domino strike chance by the same amount so putting so many levels in Strength compared to Dexterity means you're missing out on damage and crit chance. Endurance is also worth leveling up more. If you go 1h, then don't level up agility as much, but if you go 2h, then agility is worth it for the attack speed bonus.
You should also take levels off of intelligence since it only gives you this plus a small boost to spirit.
1 point = +2 to Magical Damage formula
1 point = +0.5 to the Magical Crit Chance formula
(Staff only) 100 points = +1% Coalesced Mana Chance
Wisdom gives you more magic points, mana regeneration, resist, magic accuracy, and more magic mitigation so it's worth leveling up somewhat. Not that I'm saying you should sink too many levels into wisdom, just that intelligence should be much lower than other stats since it really doesn't do anything for you.