[X] My Assistant

I won't be commenting any tiny bit, sorry. I can't give a proper, final answer to that question unless I get my hands on a Peerless rapier.

I'm thinking about raising some of my monsters.
Shall I raise a few monsters to Lv 1104(110 packs), Lv 1218(around 170 packs), or to Lv 792(27 packs) as many as possible?

How much does getting to around 1100~1200 contributes to the number of gifts. Does anyone has data comparison between 1200 and 792 monsters?

Thanks for the additional Basara links. His later tests with Imperil instead compared holy+dark rapier to holy+elec shortsword and were 10% faster, compared to being 5% faster with holy+elec rapier. We might extrapolate his results to assume that Imperil usage speeds up a pure holy/dark rapier as well.

As for my thoughts on their debate, decondelite should be right that he would be more proficient with Imperil and targeting, so I suppose it's undecided which is faster, Imperil 1H Shortsword or Imperil 1H Rapier. For testing purposes I prefer Basara's use of Slaughter gear, eventually at level 500 that's likely fastest for either weapon. His Balance armor may have skewed results towards rapier because PA will inflict more often that way.

Imperil can't drop resistance below 0 so it's not quite as simple as subtracting 40 for elements. Close enough, though. Subtracting 65 together with elemental spike shield will hit the cap more often. On void day all elements drop by another 5 resistance and on element day it's 10 resistance. This drop can go below 0 but I never verified whether Imperil plus day's element can go below 0. The day's element doesn't show up in Scan so maybe it can.

Well, I'll answer to this statement from Basara here when he answered decon, as it illustrates what I've been trying to explain for a few posts:

"It would be like comparing 1H with 2H ou DW. They are different styles, with different gameplay."

Of course, because Imperil style is a complete different style from your regular melee style.

He has proven that for melee users, Imperil speeds up things. And also, that for melee users, a Shortsword with Imperil is almost as good as a Rapier, and cheaper to get.

So he has tested the usage of Rapier without Imperil, Rapier with Imperil and Shortsword with Imperil.

The test is good, but incomplete.


Because that isn't the only way to use Imperil. Melee users use Imperil as an attachment.

Moreover, they rely on Power of Slaughter sets, not on their weapons except for Rapier PA. They could use a toothpick with Imperil and still deal humongous amounts of damage thanks to their armors.


Imperil style is a completely different gameplay. Is as different as using 2H, DW or Nitten, when compared to 1H melee slaughter users.

Imperil style revolves around its usage and optimization. You build your character around Imperil and how to maximize it and all synergies that go with it, because one of the advantages of that spell, if used properly, is that you're squeezing the game mechanics and taking advantage of almost all sources of damage.

The weapon is just an attachment, but Shortswords tend to work better because they maximize parry and counter damage, and they have Bleeding Wound too, that properly stacked (SGs and such, mainly) deals quite a bit of damage.

More than one SG has spent her last moments bleeding to death while I was taking care of one of her friends (you do that for the last hits, so you "save" 1-2 hits).

The way I see it, I'm a hybrid caster that wears heavy armor and uses a Shortsword.

I don't kill the monsters. They fall down on my sword and kill themselves. It's not exactly like that, of course, but that's how I'd describe the gameplay.

Power of Slaughter doesn't do because it's explained in that post, you want Protection and Warding for more PMit and MMit that will handle the damage, especially the magical one.

Because you want to extend their agony as much as possible before they die (more Counters), and you don't want to be patching yourself every few turns because it hurts.

And yes, as a caster you need to improve on those aspects too, that's why you need Aether Shards if you want to do things right. And Featherweight Shards for lower mana consumption.


In short: there is a difference between Shortsword with Imperil and Imperil with Shortsword. They aren't the same thing, even if the words are the same.

--------------------------------------------

Regarding the second part of your post. Are you sure you don't have OCD or something? Because you sure are nitpicking every little thing.

I substracted 40 and 25 to show, in general terms, the effect of Imperil regarding elemental mitigations. They aren't the exact numbers, of course, but it shows the influence of it and how it changes the ranking between elemental and Holy/Dark resistances.

I mean, if you're dying for the specific numbers, grab the spreadsheet, discount Imperil effects and do the new averages yourself. It's a pain dealing with 50k entries, you know.

I think I've explained it before, but the spreadsheet isn't intended to give exact numbers or specific behaviours, but rather, to serve as some sort of a guide to learn about the game.

I won't be commenting any tiny bit, sorry. I can't give a proper, final answer to that question unless I get my hands on a Peerless rapier.

Good luck with that, it sounds like an expensive test.

I have no disagreement with any of that but I was thinking that near level 500 you would still rather use Slaughter armor. Because as you get higher in level what happens is that your defense naturally improves, while your offense relative to monsters' HP remains the same or slows down. Your mana reserves also improve with level, though not linearly.

By level 500 you should be able to tank it all even with Slaughter armor, and maybe even in Item World and Grindfests. Even if you can't quite tank it all, you have other options to improve tanking ability such as casting Haste. Though that slows you down it greatly increases your survivability so it could be worth it, or could allow you to switch to Slaughter armor, etc. I can't be sure, just presenting ideas.

It's a good thing Featherweight Shards and Mana Draughts are so cheap. The Imperil style seems like it might use a decent amount of resources. I'm too stingy to use Infusions or Aether Shards. I wonder how does the upkeep cost compare to maging?

I'm thinking about raising some of my monsters.
Shall I raise a few monsters to Lv 1104(110 packs), Lv 1218(around 170 packs), or to Lv 792(27 packs) as many as possible?

How much does getting to around 1100~1200 contributes to the number of gifts. Does anyone has data comparison between 1200 and 792 monsters?

1104 is when you start noticing an increase in drop rate. And in PFFEST, you have a decent chance on seeing your monster once.

1218 is when you have a 100% chance of seeing your monster at least once in PFFEST

750 is good, because then you have a chance of getting HG materials. 751 is worse than 750, because 751 is monster cuisine level.

-snip-

Power of Slaughter is definitely enough for arenas and IW100, if forged to the brim.
For PFFEST, I'm not sure, but it might be or not be possible if it's a full Peerless of Slaughter to tank the entire monster party like a pig until the very end of the challenge. At level 500.

Casting Haste is definitely a no-go when it comes to max out. It would decrease the frequency of counterattacks quite dramatically and slow down the rate at which draughts regenerate your mana. To nail the coffin, if you do use a shock spike shield like I do, it'd also result in less monsters hitting the spike shield during the casting sequence, resulting in a slightly lower success rate at landing imperil.
It is certainly very good at helping one to survive though. But I'd recommend resorting to other depr spells before, like Silence, Sleep and Drain.

The actual mana cost. Once fully feathered, my Peerless set reaches 116% mana cost modifier. During spirit stance, it becomes 87%. Of course, a regular Legendary set wouldbe slightly higher than that, but not much.
So overall the mana cost is roughly the same as a mage's. Except you only cast Imperil and you aren't spamming offensive spells, so it's very easy to keep up with the mana costs with mana draughts only. Mind you, the said draughts do tick way more often than as mage, since you don't have neither attack speed nor cast speed.

Really, the only thing that is (mildly) costly are Aether Shards. Given the great effects it has on the playstyle, that expense is certainly worth it. As for the infusions, with enough training you drop as many as you spend them, if not even more. I'd recommend Infusions of Flames combined with the Shock Spike Shield BTW, against regular monsters.

Well, if you want to see 2 people with similar offensive style (non-Imp rapier, I think they are both) but with completely opposite armor, you can check Uncle Stu and Juggernaut Santa in this thread:

https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?showt...4153&st=980

Not sure if both have full set of peerless fully forged, but they are doing pretty well.

Still, iirc, a fully forged to the brim peerless set has a PMit max around 82 and MMit max around 78, while Protection and Warding sets to the brim are around 85-86%, and MMit around 82%.

I'm not sure if it's worth getting 2k more ADB in exchange of 25-30% more damage (18/14 or 22/18). Not sure if these are absolute maxes, but I'd say they are close to that proportion.

Still, checking the ADB formula on wiki, with STR and DEX 1500 each (no player has that, but well) and maxed 1H prof with ability you get 5k damage from character (2600 from PABs, 2400 from prof), 2.9k damage from max forged rapier (3.4 if SS) and 6500 from full forged slaughter set, vs 4500 from full forged power of protection/warding set (these are rough numbers).

That is, a potential of 14,400 ADB vs 12,400 ADB (with rapier) or 14,900 ADB vs 12,900 ADB (with SS).

DD and other multipliers not taken into account.

Is it really worth increasing your ADB by 16% in exchange of 25% of your defense? If using a SS, the proportion is even less, with 2/13 damage increase (15%, roughly).

Of course, you can also go full savage, but then say bye bye to a lot of elemental mitigations and say hello to Celestial magick. And not that Savage would help you with counters if using Imperil style.

Also, how does increasing your damage more and more translate into faster clearing speeds? I don't think the relationship is linear, as in 10% extra ADB = 10% less time, because the more damage you get, the more likely are you to waste some. And in some cases, it won't do much, because you will still need the same number of hits to kill that something.

It's going max ADB really the way to go?


Btw, regarding Aether Shards and other toys, I use them on DwD arena. I don't use on the rest because LAZY and HVToolbox doesn't have fast enchant option (and can't use HVUtils), if it did, I bet I'd use them more.

Yes, that means that every run I use around 5k in shards and infusions (1 aether, 1 voidseeker, 7 feathers, 4 infusions of dark), and I don't regret it a bit.

And I belong to the "poor players club".

Cant you all continue this discussion somewhereelse? Imo it is going on allready way too long and it is not about answering a question aka off topic.

The Aether Shards are not that much needed against SGs, since they have low evade and resist chance.

Uncle, where should we go? I guess Ponyverse but it's easier to search when all the technical discussion is in one place.

Silence and Drain are good ideas. Situations for it are niche but I've always had my Drain upgraded to max. I never upgraded Silence since it works well in base form. It's probably about time I do since I believe it gets extra targets for no additional mana cost. I don't think you'd want to cast Sleep because then you wouldn't get hit, having the same problem as Haste or Shadow Veil. Confuse might be good, though...

With Shock Shield I wonder if your Fire element or main element does more damage? Is it Cold or Dark these days? Maybe Fire+Cold for regular arenas and Holy+Dark for SG arenas?

Is it really worth increasing your ADB by 16% in exchange of 25% of your defense? Also, how does increasing your damage more and more translate into faster clearing speeds? I don't think the relationship is linear, as in 10% extra ADB = 10% less time, because the more damage you get, the more likely are you to waste some.

It's comparitively not worth it but after you get tanky enough at high level, it is. Until this game gets higher difficulty levels where the mages can't survive and melee styles will once again reign supreme. I've said exactly what you just did before. Thus far I was surprised to find that more ADB and up to DD5 has translated into proportionately faster speeds for me in DwD. You can check my old times in the DwD thread where I specifically looked out for diminishing improvement. I'm slow but comparing to my own self it should be okay.

back then i had this idea of moving theorycrafting to ponyverse, and actual support here on ask the experts...

1-1) What’s the difference between trophy tier 1 and tier 2 (or tier 4 v.s. tier 5, etc)? And does loot reward always stay of the same minimal quality when it’s boosted by +1 like this? E.g. Yggdrasil’s Sapling gets boosted from tier 4 to tier 5, but the reward equip min. quality remains Superior anyway.
1-2)
 >"Quality point for Arena clear drops: Longest Journey challenge on Nightmare difficulty"
Does this mean that, say, a Manbearpig Tail can be of either tier 2 or tier 3? If yes, can a tier-3 Tail somehow be distinguished from a tier-2 one? Wouldn’t they have the exact same item description?
1-3) Do the +1 tier quality boosts apply to Rings of Blood as well? E.g. is there any difference to droping a Black T-Shirt from mob Real Life in blood ring “Real Life” at normal difficulty v.s. doing the same at PFUDOR?

2)
 >Arena clears have a very low chance for Legendary even on Normal
Is the “very low” the same 1/400,000 that’s mentioned here?

3)
Which parts of this monster level cap formula for my current character fighting at PFUDOR am I messing up?
 >((126+125)^1.27)-247 =868.7
The monster lab page says Max Monster PL should be
 >((Player's effective level) ^ 1.27) - 247
So shouldn’t my character’s effective level at PFUDOR currently be 126+125=251?
And shouldn’t consequently Max Monster PL for me to encounter in PFUDOR rounds be 251^1.27-247=~869?

Cant you all continue this discussion somewhereelse? Imo it is going on allready way too long and it is not about answering a question aka off topic.

back then i had this idea of moving theorycrafting to ponyverse, and actual support here on ask the experts...

What? No answer like this now Scremaz?

"ask the experts" can also mean "let's discuss how to craft a stable platform to run your HV" at mods discretion, i guess... till now no mod said we're too OT, so i guess it's still within reasonable limits unsure.gif

otherwise, how to return in HV topic? any ideas, ahroun or Ubershank?

How strange, I thought that as people talk about their nightmares with Windows 10, or about their trophies or about a lot of other things that are on-topic here, a discussion about whether Power of Slaughter or of Protection/Warding is more suitable, or the limits of your ADB or any other related topic would be, maybe, interesting to a newbie too.

I guess that knowing what monster types are more frequent, stronger and what element deals more damage is uninteresting to a newbie too.

I could point out how we have had a mod around and has said nothing (unless Uncle Stu is one, of course), but I won't. I will abide by the desires of you both and shut my mouth.

And I won't even goad you to bring new ideas.

Uncle, where should we go? I guess Ponyverse but it's easier to search when all the technical discussion is in one place.

Silence and Drain are good ideas. Situations for it are niche but I've always had my Drain upgraded to max. I never upgraded Silence since it works well in base form. It's probably about time I do since I believe it gets extra targets for no additional mana cost. I don't think you'd want to cast Sleep because then you wouldn't get hit, having the same problem as Haste or Shadow Veil. Confuse might be good, though...

With Shock Shield I wonder if your Fire element or main element does more damage? Is it Cold or Dark these days? Maybe Fire+Cold for regular arenas and Holy+Dark for SG arenas?
It's comparitively not worth it but after you get tanky enough at high level, it is. Until this game gets higher difficulty levels where the mages can't survive and melee styles will once again reign supreme. I've said exactly what you just did before. Thus far I was surprised to find that more ADB and up to DD5 has translated into proportionately faster speeds for me in DwD. You can check my old times in the DwD thread where I specifically looked out for diminishing improvement. I'm slow but comparing to my own self it should be okay.

Sorry, I guess we have to stop this here.

This post has been edited by ahroun: Sep 29 2019, 03:17

What? No answer like this now Scremaz?

as i said, "at mods' discretion". the usual comparison between this and that have been discussed a ton of times, have not brought to a conclusion and more times than not it led to some attriction here and there.
furthermore, people is still relying on years-old data like if they were gospel.

if discussing about a stable platform to run your software is OT, theorycraft about what *may* or *may not* with obsolete data and pretending to generalize the concept to all levels is even more. first step to discuss about that proficiently is to earn some more up-to-date data, and understand what's their range of validity.

I could point out how we have had a mod around and has said nothing (unless Uncle Stu is one, of course)

hmm... no, stu isn't, actually.

This post has been edited by Scremaz: Sep 29 2019, 12:10

1-1) What’s the difference between trophy tier 1 and tier 2 (or tier 4 v.s. tier 5, etc)? And does loot reward always stay of the same minimal quality when it’s boosted by +1 like this? E.g. Yggdrasil’s Sapling gets boosted from tier 4 to tier 5, but the reward equip min. quality remains Superior anyway.
1-2)
 >"Quality point for Arena clear drops: Longest Journey challenge on Nightmare difficulty"
Does this mean that, say, a Manbearpig Tail can be of either tier 2 or tier 3? If yes, can a tier-3 Tail somehow be distinguished from a tier-2 one? Wouldn’t they have the exact same item description?
1-3) Do the +1 tier quality boosts apply to Rings of Blood as well? E.g. is there any difference to droping a Black T-Shirt from mob Real Life in blood ring “Real Life” at normal difficulty v.s. doing the same at PFUDOR?

2)
 >Arena clears have a very low chance for Legendary even on Normal
Is the “very low” the same 1/400,000 that’s mentioned here?

3)
Which parts of this monster level cap formula for my current character fighting at PFUDOR am I messing up?
 >((126+125)^1.27)-247 =868.7
The monster lab page says Max Monster PL should be
 >((Player's effective level) ^ 1.27) - 247
So shouldn’t my character’s effective level at PFUDOR currently be 126+125=251?
And shouldn’t consequently Max Monster PL for me to encounter in PFUDOR rounds be 251^1.27-247=~869?

1) Looks like you're overthinking things. Manbearpig Tail will not suddenly become tier 3 if is is tier 2. And you will always get useless shit from shrining trophies. Trick is to shrine a hell of a lot, and then get FoS perk, then you may get something valuable (but not the one thing you're after, probably). There is a difference in bonus from arena's, trophy shrine quality, and random drop quality. Maybe it's easy to get confused with all this different ties/difficulty/quality options. Difficulty does nothing to the tier of a trophy. A noodly from 'normal' is the same noodly as one gotten on PFUDOR.

2) Low. Nobody knows how low except Tenboro. We don't have sufficient data to be sure that it is 1/400,000 but for practical purposes, it's enough to know that it is very very low.

3) Can't you just scan the monsters you encouter? That should help you validate your calculations.

>Trick is to shrine a hell of a lot, and then get FoS perk, then you may get something valuable (but not the one thing you're after, probably).

I understand that just by themselves they are almost useless to most, I just want to clarify what are the concrete effects of those +1 tier bumps from difficulty levels.

For instance the Trio and the Tree arena features Yggdrasil who drops Sapling, and Sapling is listed as a tier 4 trophy. And then it says that there is an additional quality point for clearing Trio and the Tree on PFUDOR and adds a new row of a tier 5. So what I wanted to know was what does it mean by that quality point and what do these +1 points actually do.
---
>Can't you just scan the monsters you encouter? That should help you validate your calculations.
Scanning my encountered monsters just shows that my calculations are wrong by a lot, since instead of a power level cap of 869 I’ve been encountering monsters of PL of over 1800s (e.g. morineko’s Shadowcats).

I did already noticed way back then, that the real cap was way higher than what the wiki indicates.

>Trick is to shrine a hell of a lot, and then get FoS perk, then you may get something valuable (but not the one thing you're after, probably).

I understand that just by themselves they are almost useless to most, I just want to clarify what are the concrete effects of those +1 tier bumps from difficulty levels.

For instance the Trio and the Tree arena features Yggdrasil who drops Sapling, and Sapling is listed as a tier 4 trophy. And then it says that there is an additional quality point for clearing Trio and the Tree on PFUDOR and adds a new row of a tier 5. So what I wanted to know was what does it mean by that quality point and what do these +1 points actually do.
---
>Can't you just scan the monsters you encouter? That should help you validate your calculations.
Scanning my encountered monsters just shows that my calculations are wrong by a lot, since instead of a power level cap of 869 I’ve been encountering monsters of PL of over 1800s (e.g. morineko’s Shadowcats).

Okay, so the monster level cap in wiki is wrong. Doesn't surprise me at all. Could that cap be the minimum level? Sounds about right, but that may just be coincidence

On the other point: that can not be what the wiki ment - a sapling is a sapling. They are even tradable! There is no 'secret upgrate to my saplng' because I play on PFUDOR. What happens, is you get 'the equivalent of shrining a tier 5' as end-of-arena-bonus, I suspect that is what the wiki is trying to explain (badly). I will see if I can make it more clear. But there is no such thing as an upgraded sapling. A trophy is what it is.

edit: I added in the wiki: (NB: nothing to do with a trophy) and an explanation below the table. A row that starts witn N/A is not the second row for the trophy above, it's a new row. And that row has nothing to do with trophies. Those N/A rows are about the end-of-arena-bonus-drop. You can't shrine those. Those are equipment drops.

This post has been edited by DJNoni: Sep 29 2019, 14:28

edit: I added in the wiki: (NB: nothing to do with a trophy) and an explanation below the table. A row that starts witn N/A is not the second row for the trophy above, it's a new row. And that row has nothing to do with trophies. Those N/A rows are about the end-of-arena-bonus-drop. You can't shrine those. Those are equipment drops.

Those rows in the wiki were always so confusing to me. Thanks for clearing them up a bit. They will probably still confuse newcomers though.

Thanks for the clarification.

>Those N/A rows are about the end-of-arena-bonus-drop.

AKA the guaranteed equip drop, right (the same that stays at min. average quality even on PFUDOR)? And since both tiers 4 & 5 are min. Superior, tiers 6 & 7 are min. Exquisite, etc, I guess what the +1 does is increase the chances for good slot rolls post the quality roll? I.e. Tier, Suffix, PAB, Prefix, etc?