[X] My Assistant

I have some high level daimons

PL Min = 1751

Well, I've never meant that they aren't. When I say "ignore" I mean it in the statistical sense: that is, lower frequency.

Still, see that your monsters are closer to 1500 than to 2250.

At my level, 356, my PL max is around 2250 at PFUDOR. That means that I'll find monsters with PLs ranging from 1125 to 2250; but with more preference to monsters close to my PL cap, that is, 2250.

A level 500 player has max PL of 3307 (yes, I know the cap is at 2250, but not sure if it applies to the pl_max variable that also defines his minimum), and I guess that his minimum is 1653, with even more chances of seeing PL 2250 monsters in his runs.

Check out monsters over 1750 and especially over 2000. Celestials make up 1/4 of the monsters ranging the 1750 to 2000 PL range, and 11% of the highest level ranks (2000 to 2250). Daimons barely make for 2% in the 1750-2000 range, with 3.6% monsters being Daimon on the higher level ranges.

That's mostly the monsters you'll find out. When I saw decon's list first time, it was like, "shit, I think I've seen all of these. Too often for my liking".

For example, I see First of the Porn Start, Noel The Celestial or any of the Peerless series constantly (all of them are level 2250). It's been a while since I saw My Little Noni.


Obviously, this doesn't apply to players with lower levels/difficulty. But of course, they (and me too) prefer Holy/Dark combo thanks to the schoolbitches.

See that my comment Holy (or even Dark) with Imperil is more directed towards non-SG arenas (that is, IW and Grindfest), that are the areas where high leveled players go.

PS: I'm up for seeing more Daimons, so feed them up so that my Hallowed Shortsword can kill them.

Edit: fixed calculations of PL for level 500.

This post has been edited by ahroun: Sep 26 2019, 22:58

Fire = 64.81 (24.81)
Cold = 57.50 (17.50)
Elec = 63.24 (23.24)
Wind = 59.30 (19.30)
Holy = 57.89 (32.89)
Dark = 53.79 (28.79)

Of course, this doesn't take into account whole PMit and MMit of each of the monsters, that could influence the results. Still, the highest mitigation monsters are usually weaker to Cold and Dark (think of Dragonkin and Giants, for example) while the most dangerous being Celestials and Sprites due to their special attacks are usually pretty weak, so it isn't like having elements specifically against them is gonna help you much.

I don't remember if anyone tested, but does the distribution of monsters we encounter change based on the number of monsters that players happen to have created, or does the game randomize species before randomizing individual monsters?

I suspect it's the latter case, as its known that the game has a maximum of 3 (?) species encountered per round. If so then your methodology is not correct, it would be wrong.

Did you take elemental spike shields into account in this? If not, it's hard to explain why Cold at 57.50 would rank better than Holy at 57.89 without Imperil. Looking at the original Monster Lab species elemental resistance table, Cold at 75.00 is far worse than Holy at 0.00 although that comparison is for Power Level 1 monsters.

Ignoring PMit/MMit/HP does change your results and in particular will bias you towards Dark and against Holy, as monsters weakest to Dark are Celestials, Sprites, and Humans who have wimpy defense. Dragonkin and Giants are also important examples but they are neutral to both dark/holy. I am fairly sure this is the explanation of your dark bias. Unlike my first criticism this one doesn't mean your methodology is wrong, just different.

Analysis and statistics aside, it's easily believable that all 4 elements are much better than dark/holy when Imperiled. And since the Imperil style was investigated to be slightly better than non-Imperil even on a rapier, and maybe even on dark/holy weapons, I wonder if they deserve their prices. Shouldn't cold rapier (and especially shortsword) be the most expensive? I'm trying to search for Basara's old comparison posts.

Found Basara's old comparison posts. He used a legendary hallowed plus shocking infused rapier with high adb. On Friday, when mitigation for all elements including void is reduced by 5 percent (it should be noted the mitigation reduction is additive thus not necessarily helping all elements equally). Not sure if paired with wind shield magic. The time he took to clear all arenas:

Legendary Hallowed (plus Shocking infused) Rapier with Imperil: 184 min
Peerless Shocking (plus Hallowed infused) Shortsword with Imperil: 191min
Legendary Hallowed (plus Shocking infused) Rapier without Imperil: 202min

Assuming he made no mistake keeping track of all these conditions, Imperil sped up his rapier clear time by about 10%. It would probably speed up a dual elemental rapier by more, and it will surely speed up a shortsword by way more. There's not much point to doing the shortsword Imperil vs non-Imperil comparison.

Apparently we still have not tested everything important.

• Pure dark/holy rapier has not been tested Imperil vs non-Imperil.
• Dual elemental rapier has not yet been tested against dual elemental shortsword, both with Imperil naturally.

BWS, my "methodology" is a pure statistical analysis with the tools I had.

The numbers you see are averages applied to different PLs. They are raw numbers with no work in them except extracting the data.

They are the different elemental mitigations averaged by PL ranges, with the intention to show the current distribution of resistances in the monster population.

I'm not sure what "methodology" you're talking about, because there isn't any. Nothing. Nada.

I suspect it's the latter case, as its known that the game has a maximum of 3 (?) species encountered per round. If so then your methodology is not correct, it would be wrong.

Source? First time I've heard that, and it doesn't make much sense, tbh.

Checking REs I get 4 different races for now with 9 monsters:






4 Celestials, 2 Dragonkin, 2 Beasts, 1 Mechanoid (9 monsters).
3 Elementals, 3 Sprites, 2 Celestials, 1 Arthropod (9 monsters).
4 Celestials, 2 Arthropods, 1 Giant, 1 Dragonkin (8 monsters).
3 Giants, 2 Daimon, 2 Dragonkin, 1 Beast (8 monsters).
I'll have to check with more REs and see.

Man, Celestials sure do love to appear.

Still, what's the selection method? How does HV pick the monsters for a round?

- What makes sense: pick X monsters at random. There you go.
- Pick Y species depending on the X monsters per round, those species are chosen randomly giving each the same chance (uniform distribution). Pick the monsters from the pool of each species.
- Pick Y species depending on the X monsters per round, with an uniform distribution, then make a pool with that selection and pick monsters from it.
- Pick Y monsters first from the X monsters per round. Pick the remaining X-Y monsters restricted to the species from those Y monsters. It would still be affected by monster distribution.

See that the way you make the selection influences how the monster distribution will be. First and 4th choices mean that you are still affected by the monster distribution. 3rd option means that the selection of the species isn't affected, but then the specific monsters extracted will be affected by the numbers.

And 2nd distribution is uniform between species.

I calculated the averages assuming that 2nd option and I got these values:

CODE

PL Min = 1751
PL Max = 2250

Fire = 64.02 (24.02)
Cold = 60.84 (20.84)
Elec = 64.99 (24.99)
Wind = 63.07 (23.07)
Holy = 58.76 (33.76)
Dark = 56.74 (31.74)

I'm not going to update the table, so don't bother looking into there. If you want to check my results, do it yourself, you just need to average each species and then average the 13 results.

In this case, Dark vs Holy are almost the same non-Imperiled and Cold is still the best among the 4 elements. With Imperil, my point stands: Cold is better.


And no, I did not take anything into account in this, because it's raw data. This is only to show the distribution of monsters in HV.

Elemental Shields, btw, will just make things better for that particular element. That is, less elemental mitigation, so more damage. Still, I'd stick with Shocking shield if using Imperil: lower Evade and Resist chances that mess up your Imperil.

PMit/MMit/HP couldn't have been taken into account because I don't have the freaking data. The monster database doesn't show them, Scan doesn't show them, so I don't know a monsters specific PMit/MMit/HP because those are based on their stats, that I don't know either and that are scaled to their level, btw.

Still, I'm not sure if the fact that a monster is tough or not plays a role deciding your elemental weapon. It depends on your criteria to select one:

- If you want to take out the most dangerous monsters first, Dark is your choice. Celestials and Sprites sure have those magicks that deal a lot of damage.
- If you want to balance out things a bit and try to kill them at the same rate (Imperil style) if possible, then you want anything that helps you take out the toughest guys. In the case between Holy and Dark, it'd be Holy as Undead is on the stronk side, while Daimon is quite wimpy too.

Of course, the second option means that you're going to tank them like a man.

And btw, what I have is a "Holy bias", not a "Dark bias". I like Holy and I would chose it for my weapon (or at least one of them) because of cool factor.

But what's evident is that Demonic is better than Hallowed: Celestials are more dangerous, so people pick them because they want gifts and that means killing players. There is also the fact that if you look at the table you posted (for level 0 monsters, or level 1 or whatever), it clearly shows that Dark has an advantage in elemental mitigation vs Holy, as it starts from -50 instead of 0 (meaning that it will be harder to develop resistance than on Holy).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, your second post.

Read decondelite's answer to that study. The more I play, the more I agree with him.

Anything I say here it's pointless because it's been said before. But fyi, that answer was what got me curious about Imperil SS Style.

And I've said it before, but Imperil style is more than just slapping Imperil on some monsters and going nuts.


PS: anyone knows if there is a script to keep track of the species of monsters you see?

This post has been edited by ahroun: Sep 27 2019, 06:04

Guess it was 4 monster species per round, not 3. It's in the wiki somewhere. Doesn't matter, the point is the same.

Fire = 64.02 (24.02)
Cold = 60.84 (20.84)
Elec = 64.99 (24.99)
Wind = 63.07 (23.07)
Holy = 58.76 (33.76)
Dark = 56.74 (31.74)

Thanks for recalculating, these are the numbers I expected to see. We don't know which way is correct, maybe a script expert can help us.

I agree there are factors to influence dark vs holy that are not based in numerical analysis. What you just said is the exact same thing I've always said, dark is best for low level players for the reason that it kills the most dangerous monsters.

At higher levels, people only care about clear times. This is where numerical analysis best applies, such as the one you performed, or the one in Research for 1H using a different method. The method in that thread does take PMit/MMit/HP into account, however today I realized there remains an error in its comparison. The mechanic of Penetrated Armor complicates it. Perhaps I should go necro that thread again sometime. ^_^;

Can you quote link decondelite's post you are referring to? I was likely away during that time.

...

wiki: https://ehwiki.org/wiki/Battles#Spawning_Pattern

Spawning Pattern
Custom Monsters are picked according to their Power Level vs. the player's level.
Any given custom monster won't appear more than once every ten rounds (roughly).
Monsters of the same class (species) will tend to appear together. It is not possible to face more than 4 different classes of monsters in a single round.
Only 1 custom monster per owner may spawn per round.

Guess it was 4 monster species per round, not 3. It's in the wiki somewhere. Doesn't matter, the point is the same.
Thanks for recalculating, these are the numbers I expected to see. We don't know which way is correct, maybe a script expert can help us.

I agree there are factors to influence dark vs holy that are not based in numerical analysis. What you just said is the exact same thing I've always said, dark is best for low level players for the reason that it kills the most dangerous monsters.

At higher levels, people only care about clear times. This is where numerical analysis best applies, such as the one you performed, or the one in Research for 1H using a different method. The method in that thread does take PMit/MMit/HP into account, however today I realized there remains an error in its comparison. The mechanic of Penetrated Armor complicates it. Perhaps I should go necro that thread again sometime. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif);

Can you quote link decondelite's post you are referring to? I was likely away during that time.

Mostly, what that research did was what is called a Montecarlo Simulation, or something close to it.

That is, kill a lot of monsters, extract data and there, the more monsters the better your analysis. Of course, you need to do the runs to do so, and I don't have that time (nor I can finish a PFFEST).

You can do that too. If you have the means and the time.


Ok, now we got the Spawning Pattern from Wiki that confirms it, thanks, DJNoni.

Question: how are monsters picked? I mean, sure, you pick up to 4 species.

Now, you got a pool of, for example, 156 monsters between PL 1751 and 2250. Does it pick the first monster randomly from that pool and sets up the species as "one of the species", or it first picks out the 4 species and then chooses randomly from each.

See that depending on how the choice is made, as I explained before with the 4 examples.

So don't be sure that the "corrected" values that you expected to see are right either, as we don't know yet how each monster is picked out.



As for decon's posts:

https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?showt...p;#entry5464615

https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?showt...64&st=12260

Mostly, what that research did was what is called a Montecarlo Simulation, or something close to it.

That is, kill a lot of monsters, extract data and there, the more monsters the better your analysis. Of course, you need to do the runs to do so, and I don't have that time (nor I can finish a PFFEST).

You can do that too. If you have the means and the time.
Ok, now we got the Spawning Pattern from Wiki that confirms it, thanks, DJNoni.

Question: how are monsters picked? I mean, sure, you pick up to 4 species.

Now, you got a pool of, for example, 156 monsters between PL 1751 and 2250. Does it pick the first monster randomly from that pool and sets up the species as "one of the species", or it first picks out the 4 species and then chooses randomly from each.

See that depending on how the choice is made, as I explained before with the 4 examples.

So don't be sure that the "corrected" values that you expected to see are right either, as we don't know yet how each monster is picked out.
As for decon's posts:

https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?showt...p;#entry5464615

https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?showt...64&st=12260

Exact numbers should be easy to get out of monsterbation, if we add a counter to the monster highlight function. Very basic would do. Do a PFFEST with highlight set to 'daimon', then one with highlight set to 'humanoid' etc.

So, just now I got RE when I was browsing some galleries, so I clicked the RE but ignore it first as I was in the middle of tagging stuff. Bad luck for me, when I went to check that RE, it was the RiddleMaster. Out of time, so I just continue the RE. But when I finished it, I saw that my stamina dropped from 99 to 75. What's happening? I checked the wiki, and the maximum stamina I can lose is 20.

https://ehwiki.org/wiki/RiddleMaster#Incorrect

Here, I lose 24 stamina...

Edit: My stamina was full 99, and I rarely do any arena except random encounter (iirc RE doesn't consume any stamina). Yes, I've failed a few times before this due to the same reason (prioritizing tagging over RE, thus ran out of time), but let's say that I've failed 8 times out of the last 12 RiddleMaster, then I should lose only 20 stamina when I'm at 99.

This post has been edited by Noeleo: Sep 27 2019, 13:05

It's possible that you failed it more than once without noticing.

This post has been edited by decondelite: Sep 27 2019, 13:00

So, just now I got RE when I was browsing some galleries, so I clicked the RE but ignore it first as I was in the middle of tagging stuff. Bad luck for me, when I went to check that RE, it was the RiddleMaster. Out of time, so I just continue the RE. But when I finished it, I saw that my stamina dropped from 99 to 75. What's happening? I checked the wiki, and the maximum stamina I can lose is 20.

https://ehwiki.org/wiki/RiddleMaster#Incorrect

Here, I lose 24 stamina...

Edit: My stamina was full 99, and I rarely do any arena except random encounter (iirc RE doesn't consume any stamina). Yes, I've failed a few times before this due to the same reason (prioritizing tagging over RE, thus ran out of time), but let's say that I've failed 8 times out of the last 12 RiddleMaster, then I should lose only 20 stamina when I'm at 99.

Now I got 3 consecutive RiddleMaster for all my RE. Some kind of bug?

On the other hand, the last one dropped my second legendary staff, which is shit.
Legendary Ethereal Katalox Staff of Focus
Fuck me.

This post has been edited by Noeleo: Sep 27 2019, 13:51

Now I got 3 consecutive RiddleMaster for all my RE. Some kind of bug?

as far as I remember, the more you fail riddlemaster, not only the stamina penalty is increased, the chance it'll shows up will also increased.
there was once somebody who try to be smart by intentionally fail riddlemaster a lot of time simply to increase the frequency for it to appears on grindfest.

though, 3 RE in a row is kind of a jackpot.

This post has been edited by Fudo Masamune: Sep 27 2019, 14:52

So, just now I got RE when I was browsing some galleries, so I clicked the RE but ignore it first as I was in the middle of tagging stuff. Bad luck for me, when I went to check that RE, it was the RiddleMaster. Out of time, so I just continue the RE. But when I finished it, I saw that my stamina dropped from 99 to 75. What's happening? I checked the wiki, and the maximum stamina I can lose is 20.

https://ehwiki.org/wiki/RiddleMaster#Incorrect

Here, I lose 24 stamina...

Edit: My stamina was full 99, and I rarely do any arena except random encounter (iirc RE doesn't consume any stamina). Yes, I've failed a few times before this due to the same reason (prioritizing tagging over RE, thus ran out of time), but let's say that I've failed 8 times out of the last 12 RiddleMaster, then I should lose only 20 stamina when I'm at 99.

that would mean that the stamina loss is higher if you are above 80? Or probably that you did miss some more in the last period. Perhaps it's wise to be a bit more careful? And yes, it is likely that you get 3 riddles in a row if you have indeed missed a lot of ponies.

[207607925] Magnificent Onyx Force Shield of Stoneskin (294)
[205235879] Legendary Agile Buckler of the Barrier (280)
Which is better, plz ignore the forge lvl as i could also forge the force shield.

[207607925] Magnificent Onyx Force Shield of Stoneskin (294)
[205235879] Legendary Agile Buckler of the Barrier (280)
Which is better, plz ignore the forge lvl as i could also forge the force shield.

This is not an easy one tbh. The buckler has a little bit higher block chance, while its attack speed bonus really isnt the best. So i would say you should go for the force shield, the mitigations are also higher so, it should be overall better.

This is not an easy one tbh. The buckler has a little bit higher block chance, while its attack speed bonus really isnt the best. So i would say you should go for the force shield, the mitigations are also higher so, it should be overall better.

Actually the buckler has less blk chance before forging. So I may sell my buckler and buy materials to forge this force shield? Or sell both of them and buy a L force shield? Actually no L force shield was found at my lvl.

This post has been edited by FalconF: Sep 28 2019, 04:37

Force shield is better.

If you forge it to level 10 you'll get around 47% Block chance instead of 44%.

Also, while you lose 1 PAB, you get PABs in the most important stats at your level: STR and DEX (though END is always welcome).

Also, the Force Shield is Onyx, pretty good prefix regarding elemental damage.


Well, it was a good buckler.

Actually the buckler has less blk chance before forging.

Oh, i didnt notice the forging. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/blush.gif) Well, is this case the Force shield is superior in any way. No reason at all to use the buckler. And i agree with ahroun about the PA, the loose of End is completly evened out by the gain of dex. More Dex equal more parry. And because the force shield has higher PM and MM all you should loose is a bit HP. Nothing you should worry too much about. And when those two are the best to use right now, i dont think you should until finaly a force shield for your level appear. That could be tomorrow, or in a month. Use the best you have now.

Thanks for the additional Basara links. His later tests with Imperil instead compared holy+dark rapier to holy+elec shortsword and were 10% faster, compared to being 5% faster with holy+elec rapier. We might extrapolate his results to assume that Imperil usage speeds up a pure holy/dark rapier as well.

As for my thoughts on their debate, decondelite should be right that he would be more proficient with Imperil and targeting, so I suppose it's undecided which is faster, Imperil 1H Shortsword or Imperil 1H Rapier. For testing purposes I prefer Basara's use of Slaughter gear, eventually at level 500 that's likely fastest for either weapon. His Balance armor may have skewed results towards rapier because PA will inflict more often that way.

Fire = 64.02 (24.02) -40
Cold = 60.84 (20.84) -40
Elec = 64.99 (24.99) -40
Wind = 63.07 (23.07) -40
Holy = 58.76 (33.76) -25
Dark = 56.74 (31.74) -25

Imperil can't drop resistance below 0 so it's not quite as simple as subtracting 40 for elements. Close enough, though. Subtracting 65 together with elemental spike shield will hit the cap more often. On void day all elements drop by another 5 resistance and on element day it's 10 resistance. This drop can go below 0 but I never verified whether Imperil plus day's element can go below 0. The day's element doesn't show up in Scan so maybe it can.