[X] My Assistant

Yeah? I am not even sure swap from what?

From Leather to Shade. My apologies for not being clear, i had just assumed most people who dual wield use leather.

No, you dont need prefix on your first shade armor and i would say use shade when you have shade. Any "only use shade after level 300" is bullshit. When you have it, use it. And dont worry too much about how good the armor is, you will get better later and even if you would wait for better shade, it is not as if that would be endgame gear.

I'm certainly no expert on the matter, but from what i do know makes question your assertions. It is my understanding that Shade armor's trade off is a huge drop in physical and magical mitigations, in exchange for damage and small bump in evasion. Given that your base and gear stats make your defensive stats gradually rise, it makes sense that there would be a breaking point where you could eventually handle the drop in physical and magical mitigations to use more offensively based gear without struggling on health on higher ranked difficulties. The clear benefit would be being able to kill enemies faster, which i would certainly say is the end goal in powering up in Hentai-Verse.

But i asked the initial question "How good does Shade need to be to replace Leather" because i have no idea when that breaking point is, and would love to know. At what point, be it level and/or quality, does Shade gear have to be capable of handling the highest difficulties?

I would love to hear more detailed opinions or questions on this matter.

This post has been edited by Rayosi: Aug 31 2019, 07:59

All this prompts me a question : i concur that 4-elem "rainbow" is bad. BUT what if I build a set around just 2 "chain-effect" elements ?
Meaning, the first can proc an effect exploitable by the second, like e.g Elec causing Searin Skin, followed by Fire iirc.
And if they proc, remember they usually proc in more then one target, even 3-4 on average .

That would leave each of the 2 elems with 180 % EDB bonus, using same proficiency.

The first cast could be just a T2 more to cause the effect rather then to one-shot 'em, followed by T3 of the second elem to kill all affected, then T3 of first elem to finish off (and eventually T2 or T1 of second if some tough guy still barely standing).

The 'explosion' effect is ridiculously small. But I did once get this working:

For SG arena's, when I played full cold mage, I put the T3 holy or T3 dark into the spell rotation. That gave me a good boost in proficiency, before I made the switch. And, that did not slow me down, clear time remained the same. So it was kinda 'free proficiency' that way. Holy worked a bit better than dark - same number of turns as when I played cold only.

From Leather to Shade. My apologies for not being clear, i had just assumed most people who dual wield use leather.

No, when you play DW you want a full shade set. I have never heard of people who play DW with plain leather because they want it, only because they lack the shade.

but from what i do know makes question your assertions.

Know is in this context imo a very strong word, lets call what you have been told when i look at your first post. And when that was in this topic, i really muss have missed those posts.

It is my understanding that Shade armor's trade off is a huge drop in physical and magical mitigations, in exchange for damage and small bump in evasion.

Huge drop in PM and MM? Well, when you use of protection and of warding, yeah maybe. Small bumb in evasion? Well, if you only use Negation or Arcanist i guess the increase could really just small. But overall i would still say it is worth it and personally i would even prefer exq shade for leg leather. And everytime someone asked about Leather vs Shade i allways told them go Shade and never did any of the DW experts around here disagree. The addtional damage will increase your clearing speed and when you even just use a few fleet or shadowdancer pieces the increase of your eavade will be more then just a small increse.

The clear benefit would be being able to kill enemies faster, which i would certainly say is the end goal in powering up in Hentai-Verse.

Well, when you know that clear speed is most of the game, why do you even consider leather be any good?

But i asked the initial question "How good does Shade need to be to replace Leather" because i have no idea when that breaking point is, and would love to know. At what point, be it level and/or quality, does Shade gear have to be capable of handling the highest difficulties?

You really hang yourself up on this "breaking point" do you? I have never heard of it. And just saying a shade set has to be that strong to let you be able to play PFUDOR isnt so easy. The game gets actually harder the higher your level is and you will reach a point when even Leg shade wouldnt be enough without forging.

I would love to hear more detailed opinions or questions on this matter.

Uh-huh, would you now? Well, i have said everything so far. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

No, when you play DW you want a full shade set. I have never heard of people who play DW with plain leather because they want it, only because they lack the shade.

Aye, i do lack shade of comparable quality. That's part of the reason i bring this up in the first place, if i had it id just test it out myself instead of bugging others. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

_______

I appreciate the help you've offered in your spare time to help my noob ass out, but i'm still at a loss for what quality, and/or level, Shade becomes superior to Leather. Here's a more simple, yet specific, question that will answer many of my questions i have in one go:

I currently use a mix of Legendary/Magnificent Leather that all have various prefixes, all with a "of Protection" suffix. The best shade gear with I've looted is of superior quality. I'm not too convinced replacing them is a good idea, but would you?

Examples:

Magnificent Reinforced Leather Helmet Of Protection
Superior Savage Shade Helmet of the Fleet

Legendary Cobalt Leather Leggings of Protection
Superior Shade Leggings of the Fleet

If you would, is it because defensive stats don't really matter? Or another reason? If not, then what quality/level would suffice?

Well, part of the problem i just cant tell you more. I am not aware of anyone who ever made any research for this breaking point. And even my limited experience with DW back in the days wouldnt help you at all, because the game was just a different on back these days. So, yeah. When you get some shade -that are not outleveled that much, really i wouldnt recommend to use those- just tried it out yourself. From what i know, it will be an improvement, sure as sure.

And you are welcome, i allways try to be helpfull. Even when i am not sure i can tell you anything, that would actually fulfil your thirst for knowledge, sorry. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

This post has been edited by Uncle Stu: Aug 31 2019, 10:52

Aye, i do lack shade of comparable quality. That's part of the reason i bring this up in the first place, if i had it id just test it out myself instead of bugging others. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

_______

I appreciate the help you've offered in your spare time to help my noob ass out, but i'm still at a loss for what quality, and/or level, Shade becomes superior to Leather. Here's a more simple, yet specific, question that will answer many of my questions i have in one go:

I currently use a mix of Legendary/Magnificent Leather that all have various prefixes, all with a "of Protection" suffix. The best shade gear with I've looted is of superior quality. I'm not too convinced replacing them is a good idea, but would you?

Examples:

Magnificent Reinforced Leather Helmet Of Protection
Superior Savage Shade Helmet of the Fleet

Legendary Cobalt Leather Leggings of Protection
Superior Shade Leggings of the Fleet

If you would, is it because defensive stats don't really matter? Or another reason? If not, then what quality/level would suffice?

I wouldn't replace the legendaries until you get magnificent shade or higher, preferably with 4 PABs. As for the magnificents, replace them with Exquisite+ when you can.

The thing about shade is that you'll have high evasion, but low defensive stats besides that. So be prepared to take heavy damage. When you can afford it, get the Innate Arcana hath perk so you can put Spark of Life in there and not have to worry about it too much.

No, when you play DW you want a full shade set. I have never heard of people who play DW with plain leather because they want it, only because they lack the shade.

actually there's a point of choosing leather than shade on lower level (by low is like sub 200-early 200 or something), with the absence of spirit shield and spark of life having mitigation is more important as there's nothing to stop those damage when it pass your evasion and parry.
but yeah, even with that I also believe that that limited bonus doesn't warrant an investment in leather instead of shade, moreover with how fast people level up to the point that both spirit shield amd spark of life abilities are being dependable.

Aye, i do lack shade of comparable quality. That's part of the reason i bring this up in the first place, if i had it id just test it out myself instead of bugging others. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

_______

I appreciate the help you've offered in your spare time to help my noob ass out, but i'm still at a loss for what quality, and/or level, Shade becomes superior to Leather. Here's a more simple, yet specific, question that will answer many of my questions i have in one go:

I currently use a mix of Legendary/Magnificent Leather that all have various prefixes, all with a "of Protection" suffix. The best shade gear with I've looted is of superior quality. I'm not too convinced replacing them is a good idea, but would you?

Examples:

Magnificent Reinforced Leather Helmet Of Protection
Superior Savage Shade Helmet of the Fleet

Legendary Cobalt Leather Leggings of Protection
Superior Shade Leggings of the Fleet

If you would, is it because defensive stats don't really matter? Or another reason? If not, then what quality/level would suffice?

the comparison is too far apart, the question should only pose as a question if it's like one tier away (i.e mag power vs legendary plate - or if you absolutely know that the pros of one side is negligible for you ), in this case there's little to no reason of comparing the equipments you mention, mag and legendary is way too out of league for superior to compete with as they're two and three tier apart (there's exquisite in between)
- not to mention that the level also far too different.

If it's in the same tier or sometimes when it's one tier lower, shade generally be better than leather. Shade have no burden (no evade penalty), higher damage avoidance (evade and resist chance), and also offer attack damage bonus.
The only part shade worse than leather is it's direct mitigation (PMI/MMI and specific mitigation), and higher damage avoidance is generally more important than mitigation.

there's also the case with PAB, out of 4 PAB light armor offer, all of them are important for light armor playstyle.
on 1h-heavy you could selectively choose 2PAB armor without END in exchange of higher damage bonus from lower tier power armor with ADB bonus as long as the STR and DEX are not too far apart. As END only boost defense and 1h-heavy are already bloated with defense mechanism from it's block, parry, and counter stun from just your weapon and shield.
the same couldn't be said on light play, you need all PAB light armor offers, STR increase your meager attack, DEX increase attack and parry, AGI increase your evade, and END increase your defense. and you need all of them from armor in near equal terms.

cmiiw

-edit-

It is my understanding that Shade armor's trade off is a huge drop in physical and magical mitigations, in exchange for damage and small bump in evasion.

the PMI/MMI drop is not "huge", unless you're comparing leather protection/warding to shade, as shade have no protection/warding suffix.
the bump in evasion is also not small.

compare these for example (all breastplate, ranged around lvl 456-462)
lvl 459 11.59% PMI 09.17% MMI 3.16% eva 14.03% resist leather deflection (no pmi/mmi bonus)
lvl 462 11.04% PMI 17.17% MMI 3.32% eva 13.55% resist leather warding (mmi bonus)
lvl 457 15.61% PMI 09.41% MMI 3.34% eva 14.01% resist leather protection (pmi bonus)
lvl 456 09.90% PMI 06.98% MMI 6.35% eva 28.62% resist shade negation (resist bonus)
lvl 411 09.49% PMI 06.78% MMI 8.65% eva 20.06% resist shade fleet (eva bonus)
can't find any fleet/shadowdance close to the level, but it works for rough illustration lol.

This post has been edited by Fudo Masamune: Aug 31 2019, 13:38

The 'explosion' effect is ridiculously small. But I did once get this working:

For SG arena's, when I played full cold mage, I put the T3 holy or T3 dark into the spell rotation. That gave me a good boost in proficiency, before I made the switch. And, that did not slow me down, clear time remained the same. So it was kinda 'free proficiency' that way. Holy worked a bit better than dark - same number of turns as when I played cold only.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing your exp (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Aye, i do lack shade of comparable quality. That's part of the reason i bring this up in the first place, if i had it id just test it out myself instead of bugging others. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Remember that you don't have to replace all leather for shade, you can freely mix the two; for abilities' bonus, leather and shade are considered the same type of armour.

That gives you the flexibility to use the best leather together with the best shade; letting out worse leather only lowers your PMit/MMit a bit, letting out the worst shade doesn't change much in attack.

You also have to consider that upgrading (aka "forging") shade is somewhat more costly that plain leather, due to having to use Shade Fragment (5 - 6 k each last time I checked).

So forging a Leg. plain leather to e.g. 11 is cheaper for 55-66 k then a Shade. And it is a nice boost for PABs.
If it's a good Leg you could still use it at higher levels, at least for difficult runs where difense is more important.

Forging a Mag Shade is a waste imho, especially if it isn't exceptional and you plan to level up to around L.300 or more in few time.

Just my two cents. For your ref., my current equip for DW is this (and yes, I know the first one contradicts what I've just told you) :

Magnificent Shade Helmet of the Arcanist forged 5, soulfused (an old friend)

Leg. Savage Shade Breastplate of Negation

Leg. Ruby Leather Gauntlets of Dampening forged 5, soulfused

Legendary Agile Leather Leggings of Dampening IW10, almost unforged

Legendary Zircon Shade Boots of the Fleet (a lot below my level, but it was my first Leg. self-drop (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I will have to change this one soon (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif) )

P.S. You're L.250, forget about Superiors ! Exquisite is the minimum you should consider, and only if really good and cheap (or selfdrop). Good luck.

This post has been edited by mundomuñeca: Aug 31 2019, 18:41

Thank you for your answers, mundomuñeca, Fudo, & Drksrpnt. I have a much better understanding now. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

1. are shadowdancer suffixed equips objectively better than fleet ones? like would a peerless shadowdancer breastplate give the same evade bonus as a peerless fleet breastplate (in addition to the crit bonus)?

2. how high can player characters boost their evade up to? can i become unhittable with some combination of shadow veil, blind, and maxed out evade boosting equips?

3. is there a point to arcanist/battlecaster equipment? like if i had a full build with those suffixes would it offer any meaningful advantages or would it just be straight up worse than regular shade+dw/phase+staff builds?

4. what's the highest difficulty i can run Trio and the Three/FSM at with the stats/equips that i have? i don't want to waste credits repairing equips if i get ko'd but at the same time i don't want to waste time/blood tokens doing challenges at a difficulty that's too easy.





This post has been edited by //musubi: Sep 1 2019, 08:34

1. are shadowdancer suffixed equips objectively better than fleet ones? like would a peerless shadowdancer breastplate give the same evade bonus as a peerless fleet breastplate (in addition to the crit bonus)?

2. how high can player characters boost their evade up to? can i become unhittable with some combination of shadow veil, blind, and maxed out evade boosting equips?

3. is there a point to arcanist/battlecaster equipment? like if i had a full build with those suffixes would it offer any meaningful advantages or would it just be straight up worse than regular shade+dw/phase+staff builds?

4. what's the highest difficulty i can run Trio and the Three/FSM at with the stats/equips that i have? i don't want to waste credits repairing equips if i get ko'd but at the same time i don't want to waste time/blood tokens doing challenges at a difficulty that's too easy.

1: Shadowdancer is pretty much fleet with crit bonus, so yes.

2: Not as high as parry, I'm not sure what the absolute max limit is but it's probably under 75% (not counting buffs)

3: Arcanist has higher ADB than the other shade equips, and the lower burden, increased magic hit chance, and high int/wis do make it have a niche for people who use imperil in fests and such, but besides that, it's not all that great. Also, it completely loses out to cloth+staff because arcanist doesn't give any Elemental Damage Bonus or Proficiency Bonus. Not worth it to use for mage at all.

4: Hard to say without knowing what your equips and stats are, but Flying Spaghetti Monster is a better RoB to do anyway, because the other bosses from TT&T don't give trophies that are as good as FSM's.

Created another persona and used 400 dexterity points but I don't see a difference in fudor or whatever. I am not saying parry is irrelevant so maybe it's my subjective take and parry actually matters but meh. One question experts, is absorb completely useless? A fifth innate arcana for mages is a waste? Because spirit shield or whatever takes a lot of sp and how to get that much? So I was thinking maybe absorb is worth the fifth arcana slot but then it also seems a weak ass spell compared to the other 4. Also, should I set my Delicate Flower in auction for 600k start? Or I would be wasting everyone's time?

Also, how many agility and endurance points are recommendable at my level? 400? 440? More?

Created another persona and used 400 dexterity points but I don't see a difference in fudor or whatever. I am not saying parry is irrelevant so maybe it's my subjective take and parry actually matters but meh. One question experts, is absorb completely useless? A fifth innate arcana for mages is a waste? Because spirit shield or whatever takes a lot of sp and how to get that much? So I was thinking maybe absorb is worth the fifth arcana slot but then it also seems a weak ass spell compared to the other 4. Also, should I set my Delicate Flower in auction for 600k start? Or I would be wasting everyone's time?

Also, how many agility and endurance points are recommendable at my level? 400? 440? More?

- I did not know that absorb could be put into IA, are you sure about that?
- 4 IA is enough for mages. 5 is just a luxury and saves a slight bit of mana. That is becasue protection can be cast manually, you don't have to re-cast often. Only in Grindfest, but then I prefer scroll of protection anyway.
- Don't make a separate auction for a 600k item... that's just overkil. You can put it in a regular WTS. Or send to an existing auction and hope for the best. Not many collectors at this moment, though.
- AGI and END should be around your level for mage. For 1h heavy melee, AGI should be way lower.

1: Shadowdancer is pretty much fleet with crit bonus, so yes.

2: Not as high as parry, I'm not sure what the absolute max limit is but it's probably under 75% (not counting buffs)

3: Arcanist has higher ADB than the other shade equips, and the lower burden, increased magic hit chance, and high int/wis do make it have a niche for people who use imperil in fests and such, but besides that, it's not all that great. Also, it completely loses out to cloth+staff because arcanist doesn't give any Elemental Damage Bonus or Proficiency Bonus. Not worth it to use for mage at all.

4: Hard to say without knowing what your equips and stats are, but Flying Spaghetti Monster is a better RoB to do anyway, because the other bosses from TT&T don't give trophies that are as good as FSM's.

mb, forgot to include the images in the post.

- AGI and END should be around your level for mage. For 1h heavy melee, AGI should be way lower.

Disagree. Especially for players like me who tackle PFFEST as 1H. 1H does need a bit of evade in PFFEST to avoid healing too frequently without preventing the counterattacks from capping. Having the lowest attack speed and evade possible is something that viable for challenges that are less difficult, but not for PFFEST.

I'm not saying that it should be taken as an example, but I have roughly 500+100 points in AGI for my part, as 1H. And I appreciate my 24.7% evade quite a lot, especially when it's that much chance to avoid the rage-worthy RNJesus throwing two consecutive 30k dmg critical magical SP attacks that bypass the shield and leaves me at least to stop for a heal, at worst sparked with the need to chug a spirit potion.

- AGI and END should be around your level for mage. For 1h heavy melee, AGI should be way lower.

Well, four 1H i would suggest to look at your "effective" Agi, found righgt above your effective prof. That should be around your level. Mine is 503, and i enjoy every little bonus to PM it gives me. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

Thank you for your answers (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

- I did not know that absorb could be put into IA, are you sure about that?
- 4 IA is enough for mages. 5 is just a luxury and saves a slight bit of mana. That is becasue protection can be cast manually, you don't have to re-cast often. Only in Grindfest, but then I prefer scroll of protection anyway.
- Don't make a separate auction for a 600k item... that's just overkil. You can put it in a regular WTS. Or send to an existing auction and hope for the best. Not many collectors at this moment, though.
- AGI and END should be around your level for mage. For 1h heavy melee, AGI should be way lower.

Thanks (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

How common is the kevlar armour? That's the only kevlar thing ever I got:
https://hentaiverse.org/equip/9570461/cabd7f4a69

How common is the kevlar armour? That's the only kevlar thing ever I got:
https://hentaiverse.org/equip/9570461/cabd7f4a69

Well, it is that rare that not even a single one dropped since years now. Kevlar is a completly outdated prefix, maybe a collector could be interested in it. But i dont promise anything.