[X] My Assistant

I have two questions:

1. How is counter-resist on a staff (from a willow/oak staff and/or penetrator) combined with the counter-resist from the proficiency factor? Is it additive?

2. The advanced advice for mages on the wiki recommends a proficiency factor of at least 0.68 for elemental mages using imperil, and consequentially, one or two proficiency cotton pieces. What is the reasoning behind this particular threshold? Is there a derivation somewhere of it? Searching the forums did not help.

For example, assume all equipment is fully forged level 500 peerless. Is the expected damage output greater when using all phase, or is it greater when one piece is proficiency cotton? What if the phase is all radiant?

1. It's layered, otherwise combining staff and proficiency counter resist would be quite abusive.

2. Frankly, 0.68 is quite an outdated value, especially with all the PL2250 that are roaming. Consider it should be 0.70. 0.70 because it's the exact value at which you negate every (regular) monster's elemental mitigation once imperiled. What do you mean with "derivation"? Beyond 0.70, all you'll get is better counter-resist, and better elemental mitigation reduction against FSM. 1.0 prof factor rocks against FSM BTW.

I've decided that I'm committed to playing 2H (Mace) Light until it literally becomes unplayable. I guess I'm looking for advice on what I should try to prioritize.

My current theory is that I'd want a high proc rate Mace, ideally Ethereal of Slaughter. I'd then ideally want to IW it with Swift Strike 5, Butcher 4 and either Wind or Electric strike? My reasoning is that late game Counter-Parry will do nothing at 200% hit chance. As for the ideal Elemental Strike, my assumption is that Turbulent Air will result in better damage mitigation than Freezing Limbs or Searing Skin and thus I should shoot for Electric Strike, but it's hard to judge if at high attack speed Freezing Limbs will have a larger impact and thus it'd be better to go for Wind Strike... or maybe Searing Skin has the best damage mitigation and I should shoot for Cold Strike? Or maybe they yield similar results and it's not something to worry about? Either way I'm fairly sure I don't want Holy/Dark/Fire Strike.

As for Armor, I'm assuming my best bet is Agile Shade of the Fleet? Then IW it with Juggernaut 5 and a balanced mix of -proofs that don't overlap with the shield spike I end up settling on. My assumption here is that since I'm choosing Mace, my attack speed will matter more than raw damage and thus Agile Shade of the Fleet will give me more mileage than Savage Shade of the Shadowdancer, but maybe I undervalue crit?

Obviously I don't expect to have this overnight or probably even ever, just trying to get an idea of what I should be building towards. Thanks in advance for any advice!

You're a bit off. Just a like a shield's block, a mace's stun is only ever a random thing. You won't get much improvement with only the weapon's proc chance, I'm afraid. Likewise, the elemental proficiencies gained on the armor have absolutely no link whatsoever with your elemental strikes: they're ehere to protect you from the monster's attacks, not to add effects to your own attacks.

What I'd do in your situation:
-more DEX and AGI
-don't focus on either Fleet or Shadowdancer, but pick whatever has the best evade on top of having the Agile prefix
-consider using a Vampire weapon
-use depr spells, most likely Drain on monster A

1. I don't know for sure. But I do know that every bit of counter resist helps a lot! HV Utils makes a calculation of the monster resist, so it should have a formula in the code. Sorry, I'm too lazy to check for you.
2. It's based on experience. The calcuated value would be a bit higher, after 0.78 you will have maxed the effect of proficiency even against specialized monsters with highest resist to your element. But after 0.68 the gain gets very low, and you can stop there.
Nice choice! I love it when players go their own way

IW should involve a lot of Overpower, I would think? Overpower5 + BUt/Fat4? Any 2h players who can confirm? (Decondelite, Sickentide)

Great choice of armor, but you can easily mix in some savage prefix, or shadowdancer suffix. Those are good also.

For a mace, hard to say. Since there's no shield to stun the monsters and a mace is not that likely to stun a monster and negate its evade/parry, it seems to me that both OP5B4 and B5SS4 are the best options for a mace. In all cases, Butcher is mandatory, because the weapon's ADB makes for the biggest part of the overall attack base damage, no kidding. But fatality? No way, that's basically the worst least good potency out there for a Shade 2H.

You're a bit off. Just a like a shield's block, a mace's stun is only ever a random thing. You won't get much improvement with only the weapon's proc chance, I'm afraid. Likewise, the elemental proficiencies gained on the armor have absolutely no link whatsoever with your elemental strikes: they're ehere to protect you from the monster's attacks, not to add effects to your own attacks.

I think there's maybe a misunderstanding? I understand that I can't increase the proc rate of the weapon I have, which is why I'd ideally want a Mace with a proc chance as close to 30% as possible right? Or is there some other aspect of the Proc chance I'm missing? I will say, it definitely feels like my current Mace stuns significantly more than the 29% chance of doing so it claims to have (although I think it's probably the combination with Domino Strike that makes the proc seem higher than it actually is), so I guess it'd be concerning if there's something behind the scenes I'm not aware of.

I understand that -proof potencies don't contribute to Element Strike damage. What I'm saying is that ideally, assuming I end up using Frost Spike Shield, I'd want to get a distribution of something like this across my 5 pieces of armor:
25 Juggernaut
5 Darkproof
5 Holyproof
5 Fireproof
5 Elecproof
5 Windproof

This would give me +50% HP and at least +20% mitigation to each element. Realistically, I'd probably settle for an uneven mix, but I'd assume the above would be the ideal set of potencies. In this case I'd want my weapon to have Wind Strike to capitalize on Freezing Limbs. Is there something I'm missing?

What I'd do in your situation:
-more DEX and AGI
-don't focus on either Fleet or Shadowdancer, but pick whatever has the best evade on top of having the Agile prefix
-consider using a Vampire weapon
-use depr spells, most likely Drain on monster A

Good to hear I'm on the right track with my stat distribution and priority of Agile. The suggestion of going for an of the Vampire is something I considered, so it's definitely interesting to see it reflected here. My concern is that it'd be too much of a hit to damage output to be a sustainable tactic, that'd I'd end up suffering more damage from enemies being alive too long for it to actually balance out. I'm definitely open to trying it if you think the health gained would outpace the extra expected damage taken from enemies I'm not killing fast enough. I suppose it's hard for me to visualize the endgame, but I could definitely believe a world where having high enough attack speed would make Vampire worth it.

For a mace, hard to say. Since there's no shield to stun the monsters and a mace is not that likely to stun a monster and negate its evade/parry, it seems to me that both OP5B4 and B5SS4 are the best options for a mace. In all cases, Butcher is mandatory, because the weapon's ADB makes for the biggest part of the overall attack base damage, no kidding. But fatality? No way, that's basically the worst least good potency out there for a Shade 2H.

Is Swift Strike really that outpaced by Butcher!? I'd think that Swift Strike would be particularly important if I end up with a Vampire Mace right? Am I mistaken?

...

I have a couple of things I want to weigh in on from the previous first post:

First, it sounds like you might have a misconception about elemental procs - those only apply from spells, not from elemental strikes, so while you can have it proc from the spike shield ability you won't get Turbulent Air from using Wind Strike, for example. However, elemental strikes CAN trigger the explosion effect (ie, if you're using fire spike shield, cold strikes can consume the searing skin proc for a small amount of damage). However, the damage is pretty negligible...

In most situations holy, dark and cold are going to be the ideal elements due to schoolgirls & distribution of regular monster resistances.

Next up: the argument between Savage and Agile is dependent on whether you want damage (savage) or more survivability (agile). 2H mace could go either way: you'll be less dependent on attack speed reducing the amount of attacks you take per turn if you've got most enemies stunned consistently. It also depends on what kind of content you want to do - if you're using estoc in fests or high item worlds, agile is probably going to be mandatory for 2H players. Arenas only should be survivable fairly easily without even significant forging on savage (though a little bit is always encouraged, due to the logarithmic curve on upgrade returns...)

Doubly so if you want to play Fus-Ro-Dah, which apparently uses as much attack speed as possible to build up overcharge before the stun runs out, allowing you to keep all enemies permanently stunned as long as you play strategically and have it ready at the start of a new round.

Vampire weapons are considerably outside the meta and your mileage may vary on how good they are.

As for the relative value of butcher vs swift strike: depends on whether you need the attack speed to survive (or elongate the duration of buffs). Otherwise, straight up more damage is going to benefit you more.

This is largely my experience as a long-time DW player talking, and not as 2H, but most of the same concepts apply.

This post has been edited by lestion: Jun 21 2019, 12:30

I have a couple of things I want to weigh in on from the previous first post:

First, it sounds like you might have a misconception about elemental procs - those only apply from spells, not from elemental strikes, so while you can have it proc from the spike shield ability you won't get Turbulent Air from using Wind Strike, for example. However, elemental strikes CAN trigger the explosion effect (ie, if you're using fire spike shield, cold strikes can consume the searing skin proc for a small amount of damage). However, the damage is pretty negligible...

Huh? I don't think that's accurate? Uh, here's part of a log of me playing (reversed to be more easily read):

Your spike shield hits Princess Amaya for 7 points of wind damage.
Princess Amaya gains the effect Turbulent Air.
You hit Princess Amaya for 2381 slashing damage.
Elec Strike hits Princess Amaya for 680 elec damage.
Princess Amaya gains the effect Bleeding Wound.
---
You cast Shockblast.
Shockblast hits Princess Amaya for 424 elec damage (50% resisted)
Turbulent Air explodes for 133 wind damage
---
You hit Princess Amaya for 2078 slashing damage.
Elec Strike hits Princess Amaya for 471 elec damage.

As you can see, the Elec Strike provided noticeably improved damage and didn't consume Turbulent Air. I suppose consideration for School Girls is important though, and looking at the resistance chart on the wiki, I didn't realize how badly Dark just outclasses everything. I suppose it's probably not wroth it to try optimizing around those debuffs when Dark is almost as good by default; good to know.

Huh? I don't think that's accurate? Uh, here's part of a log of me playing (reversed to be more easily read):


As you can see, the Elec Strike provided noticeably improved damage and didn't consume Turbulent Air. I suppose consideration for School Girls is important though, and looking at the resistance chart on the wiki, I didn't realize how badly Dark just outclasses everything. I suppose it's probably not wroth it to try optimizing around those debuffs when Dark is almost as good by default; good to know.

Yes - this does not conflict with what I explained. Sources of spell damage (spike shield, and spells like Shockblast etc) can cause those debuffs, but elemental strikes (which are counted as physical attacks, rather than spells) do not cause them.

They do, however, trigger the explosion effects when you hit with the opposing element - cold damage against a fire debuff, elec damage against a wind debuff, and vice versa for each. But the damage is minimal and barely even worth selecting your spike shield to oppose your weapon - letalone the other way round.

You said the elemental strikes trigger the explosion though, which is the part I'm saying was not accurate.

However, elemental strikes CAN trigger the explosion effect (ie, if you're using fire spike shield, cold strikes can consume the searing skin proc for a small amount of damage)

The elemental strikes benefit from decreased mitigation but will not trigger the explosion. As shown above, I hit with an Elec Strike against a monster with Turbulent Air and an explosion was not triggered. I then hit with Shockblast against the same monster and it triggered the explosion.

EDIT: I, of course, agree it's a silly optimization in the face of how overwhelming the damage mitigation between Dark and the next best element is, which I thank you for helping me realize.

This post has been edited by bbobjs: Jun 21 2019, 14:14

1. I don't know for sure. But I do know that every bit of counter resist helps a lot! HV Utils makes a calculation of the monster resist, so it should have a formula in the code. Sorry, I'm too lazy to check for you.
2. It's based on experience. The calcuated value would be a bit higher, after 0.78 you will have maxed the effect of proficiency even against specialized monsters with highest resist to your element. But after 0.68 the gain gets very low, and you can stop there.

Thanks.

1. It's layered, otherwise combining staff and proficiency counter resist would be quite abusive.

2. Frankly, 0.68 is quite an outdated value, especially with all the PL2250 that are roaming. Consider it should be 0.70. 0.70 because it's the exact value at which you negate every (regular) monster's elemental mitigation once imperiled. What do you mean with "derivation"? Beyond 0.70, all you'll get is better counter-resist, and better elemental mitigation reduction against FSM. 1.0 prof factor rocks against FSM BTW.

Thanks. By "derivation", I was hoping someone had actually done a calculation to show 0.68 was a good or optimal value. It seems this number is based on peoples' experience.

Sorry to quote from another thread, didn't wanta take it off topic.

Hong Meiling My Wife is one of the plvl capped monsters - get used to seeing her a lot! I do really like 'Hong Meiling My Wife Too' (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

This has made me realize how poorly I understand the game. If Hong Meiling is My Wife is a plvl capped monster why am I seeing them? Wouldn't they be WAY above my level?

You said the elemental strikes trigger the explosion though, which is the part I'm saying was not accurate.

The elemental strikes benefit from decreased mitigation but will not trigger the explosion. As shown above, I hit with an Elec Strike against a monster with Turbulent Air and an explosion was not triggered. I then hit with Shockblast against the same monster and it triggered the explosion.

EDIT: I, of course, agree it's a silly optimization in the face of how overwhelming the damage mitigation between Dark and the next best element is, which I thank you for helping me realize.

I switched back to DW to test that I hadn't gone mad in the month or so since I switched to mage...

... and discovered that you're absolutely correct: elemental strikes are not triggering the explosion.

So, with egg on my face, I stand corrected. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) But, at least we discovered yet another piece of outdated or incorrect information on the wiki.

("In addition, these status effect will explode for bonus damage on the monster when struck by the next offensive spell or elemental strike in the cycle.")

I did also test that this still applies regardless of whether it's an elemental strike from a prefix, from IW or from infusions.

Sorry to quote from another thread, didn't wanta take it off topic.
This has made me realize how poorly I understand the game. If Hong Meiling is My Wife is a plvl capped monster why am I seeing them? Wouldn't they be WAY above my level?

The relevant passage on the wiki is found here. But, I realise this may also be slightly outdated information (or the difficulty mods not quite accurate), because at your level, you should be capped around ~PL1750.

I'm definitely seeing these power level capped Monsters rather frequently when I play on IWBTH, haven't tried to note if I'm seeing them on Nintendo. I assumed I must be fighting some scaled down version of these monsters? Uh, here's an example from Grindfest on IWBTH.

Well, at your level all monster are sort of scaled down, so dont worry too much about that.

Hello are there any benefits to keep 1-2 monsters as pets and furthermore upgrade them instead of raising a monsters farm for guaranteed gifts? My girl hasn't won a single battle so far (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) , here are her stats:

Hello are there any benefits to keep 1-2 monsters as pets and furthermore upgrade them instead of raising a monsters farm for guaranteed gifts?

No, there isnt. Monsterlab is a numbers game, so let them breed. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

My girl hasn't won a single battle so far (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) , here are her stats:

Well, look at it that way, there are a lot of monsters out there, and i mean a lot, and how often did you loose a fight or did flee this month? I guess not that often, and the same is true for everyone else. Also with only PL 349 she isnt actually the biggest fish around, which means, not that many people would actually encounter her. But dont worry, give her time and she will get some sure a sure, you just have to be patient. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif) Also i have a lot of monster with a gift factor of 111%, but i am sure i did spend much less chaos tokens for that. And that is important because those other stats dont really win you a fight, all that actually matters is gift factor, but as i answered before, atm it is for you much more effective to increase the numbers of your monsters as to increase their stats.

This post has been edited by Uncle Stu: Jun 21 2019, 19:01

Hello are there any benefits to keep 1-2 monsters as pets and furthermore upgrade them instead of raising a monsters farm for guaranteed gifts? My girl hasn't won a single battle so far (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) , here are her stats:

Guaranteed gifts every 3 days, combined with the most valuable things (bindings & rare materials) not having any PL requirement make it significantly more efficient to have as many monsters as you can.

Monsters won't start showing up for high-level players, who play the most, until around PL1100ish or higher, and even then the rate of battle wins is not that regular. For my 1300, it's something like 1 win a week maybe - 2 if lucky? Not great.

That said, super low level monsters still get wins here and there. My monsters under level 50 seem to get them occasionally, but 200-1000 is a total dry zone.

This post has been edited by lestion: Jun 21 2019, 18:58

Monsterlab is not about money. it’s about sending a message. Everything burns!

So, with egg on my face, I stand corrected. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) But, at least we discovered yet another piece of outdated or incorrect information on the wiki.

("In addition, these status effect will explode for bonus damage on the monster when struck by the next offensive spell or elemental strike in the cycle.")

Fixed

Fixed

Better fix the sentence after, too (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

'... when struck by a Cold spell or a Cold strike.'

And the last sentence I guess can also be removed entirely. Was this accurate information at one point in time?

Resign to use shield and sword, do not misunderstand me, everything they recommended to me worked very well, but it is BORED as hell to have to wait for the monsters to die, besides for some reason, going from level 261 to 262 a must have been something incredible because they killed me quickly after some fights in the arena.

As I reached my limit of patience, lower the difficulty trying to see if I could play something a little quieter, but I happened exactly the same, so I had to go down hell level to the first level to be able to play again and even so I was able to defeat the monsters quickly. Anyway, so as not to make the issue longer I'm now in the second degree of difficulty using dual-wielding, and I'm getting along very well, for example; Yesterday I made the challenge of the arena of the 125 battles 2 times and I was full of trophies that I am needing so much now, plus 2 percussor artifacts, one appeared every time I made the challenge.

In fact, my question is related to that; One of the reasons why I give up the hell difficulty is because I was running very poor, I did not see much of anything, and what showed up did not help me much to improve my statistics, and every time less rewards appeared

But nothing else lowers the difficulty, I started to get out of everything for great amounts, is more; Uncle stu saw that yesterday I made a large order of materials, because with what I earn, I paid for what I bought and I was able to train the luck of the draw that cost me approximately 115,000 credits.

Since it explains all that, how is the base loot drawn chance affected by the difficulty? Because if it is more difficult to obtain lot in the highest difficulties, I think that I am going to stay a very long time in low difficulty.

Better fix the sentence after, too (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

'... when struck by a Cold spell or a Cold strike.'

And the last sentence I guess can also be removed entirely. Was this accurate information at one point in time?

Better?

Better?

That covers everything, good work (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)