[X] My Assistant

Because some friends of me discussed about the damage output of element mages and dark mages, I made this simple test to get some data to find out if the theory works.
I put the result here mainly to show them to my friends, but also in case of anyone interested.
I also welcome anyone use these data or do any further study to compare element and holy/dark mages.



It's just a simple and crude test for Fire and Dark spell with small (200) sample, be aware.






1 Materials and methods

1.1 Methods
Imperil Mobs and then cast 100 spell of each Fire and Dark Tier 1 on same stat monsters. record the Normal spell damage without Blast, Resist or Channeling results.

1.2 Materials

Spell
Fire: Fiery Blast, Fire Tier1, Mana Cost :20 , Speed 1.2(no sure).
Dark:Corruption,Dark Tier1, Mana Cost :48 , Speed 1.4(no sure).
Imperil: with better, faster and dark imperil.

Test Equipment

Fire

Dark

Targets
"I fear" element except "I fear fire", all with same stat, chaos upgrade.
(54 resistence of Fire and Dark, 118 END, 250 WIS.)

Ability
Conflagration, Sorcery, Faster Imperil, Better Imperil, Better Corruption, Dark Imperil and all cloth and staff relate ability.




2 Results and discuss

The original data will be listed on the bottom.

2.1Sample Character
Because most mages fight with blanket Imperil, only the imperiled damage was discussed in the test.

The MAX & Min damage of Fire and Dark Tier1 is 8649 & 13037 and 7552 & 11327, respectively.



According to the wiki "damage_range:The variable range of the spell's damage is 0.8-1.2 on average".

13037/8649≈1.50
11327/7552≈1.49

Considering the decimal number and Monster level may cause a little error, this 2 number can be view as the damage_range of current state.

Thus the damage without variable range of Fire may be approximate :
(8649+13037)/2=10843
Dark may be approximate:
(7552+11327)/2= 9439.5

SO THE damage output of Fire overcome dark may be approximate :
(10843-9439.5) / 9439.5*100%≈14.8%

It's the final result if you only care how much the damge output difference of fire and dark.
No need to read further.



2.2 Further analysis for those who cares (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Normal distribution analysis
P-P showed at least the sample is looks like a normal distribution >_>.
Congradulations, the RNG work well! (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
Fire

Dark


Paired T test

It showed there is 99.99% that the two sample are come from different population. Extremely significant. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ...





Conclusion

The Fire mage Tier1 spell is 14.8% higher than the dark ones with Imperiled.
(Yaeh, It closed to the theoretical value（ By Ace_Amuro ） , but not a good result for dark mages... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif))
(Anyway,I only put the confirmed results here... others not here )


Also thanks for my friends' help~

Original data
Fire; Dark
12756 8202
8973 10560
10379 10466
10054 8392
10054 10087
11244 11219
10271 8107
11784 8768
9428 9334
10838 7920
9536 9144
10837 8296
10511 10289
11595 8024
12245 8778
12928 10572
11920 8684
10838 8024
12494 7552
11920 11139
11516 11019
12787 8484
13037 8213
10945 10194
10647 11030
12571 8673
12388 11327
12571 9898
11842 8496
10838 7919
10280 10006
10500 10182
12341 7646
9179 10653
8963 9522
9526 8485
11339 11139
11908 9333
10718 9994
9454 7825
11799 11124
10583 8673
11150 11313
10280 9050
12990 7731
9418 10559
10501 9333
10864 10478
11300 8496
11516 10667
12820 10290
11408 8590
12385 10666
12060 10856
12277 9251
9766 11232
12588 9381
9766 10234
9983 9476
8672 10707
10310 9381
11719 7770
9766 10613
12110 9098
10704 8812
9623 8433
8758 8224
8866 10775
9408 8318
10380 8601
11029 8508
12976 10870
12543 8223
10539 8034
12278 10870
9235 9357
11191 7741
9561 8496
12604 9156
12450 11139
9288 11139
11044 8780
10908 10856
11164 9439
9288 8023
12744 9062
9960 10951
12883 10087
12744 9710
11476 10842
11880 7731
10069 8956
11124 8862
12529 9804
9203 8202
10702 10465
11135 10774
11784 8507
8649 9546
11892 8223

This post has been edited by gc00018: Nov 3 2013, 18:34

Though I don't know what it is,but I consider it very powerful~

so dark is decaying alot now (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

It feels bad. I like dark ;_;

Great work!

I'm sad I put all my efforts into my dark set, only to have it suck now. If Tenboro ever decides to rebalance elemental/holy/dark, dark should be much more powerful than elemental and more powerful than holy. I consider mana theft >> spirit theft, mainly because I don't grindfest. I have to use smite to proc Burning soul, then use Drain to get mana using my dark set in SG marathons.

I think the main reason of the different damage between fire and dark is that imperil reduce fire resist by 50 while dark imperil reduce dark resist by 30.

fire damage/dark damage=(4.25/4.5)*(100-fire mitigation)/(100-dark mitigation)

oringal mitigations are both 54
after imp fire mitigation=14 dark mitigation=29

prof=470
monster lvl=GC's lvl=427
prof_factor=(470-427)/427
mitigation reduction from Proficiency: 50*prof_factor^1.5=1.60

so final fire mitigation=12.4 dark mitigation=27.4
damage ratio: fire/dark=(100-12.4)/(100-27.4)*(4.25/4.5)=1.140

GC's result:1.148

This post has been edited by ace_amuro: Nov 3 2013, 17:04

Thanks for all of your replys.
Hope more people will care about dark mages. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm sad I put all my efforts into my dark set, only to have it suck now. If Tenboro ever decides to rebalance elemental/holy/dark, dark should be much more powerful than elemental and more powerful than holy.

Actually, in my view, dark need a special character. Element are high speed and less cost; Holy can heal more and deal more damage in SGs.

But dark didn't do more damage with high cost & slow casting speed. In addition its debuff is also the same as fire. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I think the main reason of the different damage between fire and dark is that imperil reduce fire resist by 50 while dark imperil reduce dark resist by 30.

It became 40,25 when 0.77 release, but I have to admit things didn't change a lot. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

damage ratio: fire/dark=(100-12.4)/(100-27.4)*(4.25/4.5)=1.140

GC's result:1.148

Thanks man! I have linked your reply to my conclusion, hope you don't mind.

By the way, the error may come from that my fire stat is not absolutly equal to the dark one.(experiment situation error (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) )

This post has been edited by gc00018: Nov 3 2013, 18:54

I don't know the reasoning behind the imperil floor being 0 now, and why all of a sudden in 0.77, dark/holy is so weak. Were dark/holy mages so strong previously that Tenboro had to wreck us? I don't think I was even strong enough to do IW IWTBH for Legendaries in 0.76; in 0.77 I know for sure I can't do it as dark mage with 14.5k magic score.

In my view, Tenb don't really want to nerf holy/dark, he just want to buff element and change the Ab system.

However, thing doesn't goes well...


The reason for imperil floor is to nerf imp, because this skill is too powerful to be balance.
I try to no use Holy/dark circle spell instead of Imperil in gf... nightmare,higher cost & lower damage.

The holy/dark in SGs may be just a side-effect.


May be minimize the Imperil's importance like make it effect all the target but only +25% damage will be better.

Or do tweak with Mob Resistance.

May be minimize the Imperil's importance like make it effect all the target but only +25% damage will be better.

Or do tweak with Mob Resistance.

What worries me about any suggestion like this is elemental being caught in the re-balancing crossfire and getting directly or indirectly nerfed.

If I understand correctly, this data just shows that all else being more-or-less equal, the fire mage will deal more damage than the dark mage because regular Imperil is better than Dark Imperil. I would be interested in seeing if this discrepancy holds up over X number of rounds, or if it is (at least) somewhat mitigated due to differences in the resistance table.

But from what I gather, the main point of contention is not strictly about damage, but that holy and dark mages are paying almost twice as much MP to cast spells with little-to-no benefit over elemental. So it's a problem with efficiency.

I think the least-harmful course of action would be to simply make holy and dark spells cost the same amount of MP as elemental spells, and adjust Dark and Holy Imperil if there is any significant discrepancy in overall damage. Though, it might be necessary to make the elemental ability tree cheaper, or the holy and dark trees more expensive.

maybe dark and holy will get better if dark/holy imperil have same power with normal imperil (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

maybe dark and holy will get better if dark/holy imperil have same power with normal imperil (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

... or Tenb could remove ALL specific mit reduction from Imperil to get the same effect.  (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/duck.gif)

I'm sad I put all my efforts into my dark set, only to have it suck now. If Tenboro ever decides to rebalance elemental/holy/dark, dark should be much more powerful than elemental and more powerful than holy. I consider mana theft >> spirit theft, mainly because I don't grindfest. I have to use smite to proc Burning soul, then use Drain to get mana using my dark set in SG marathons.

Don't bring any SP pots? Seems simple enough...

I have to say by limiting yourself against known mobs, you render this test useless. Sorry to break the news.

I'd rather you have collected just damage data on all mobs. Makes more sense to me tbh.

EDIT: I guess I should elaborate.

What you did was basically confirm that in fact there is a difference between dark imperil and elemental imperil. That's a given, but thanks for confirming it.

What you should focus on is normal gameplay, that is dark imperiling a few resistant mobs and fire blanket imperiling, or however you play fire. That should give us a much clearer view on how much discrepancy exists between dark and fire.

This post has been edited by ChosenUno: Nov 4 2013, 14:58

Isn't imperil and dark imperil can be paired so that Dark damage can be inflicted higher than Fire ( which can't ) ?

If I'm correct you can debuff twice using Dark/Holy rather than once if you use elemental.

So it's a given if Fire inflicts higher damage using imperil rather than Dark using Dark Imperil ? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

And I think, it's hard just to decide 'Mage Damage Output Test' comparison if only using this small percentage

of data. ( But you have done a good job anyway ).

I mean there ARE lots of variables regarding this mage damage output mechanics, including each monster has

different mitigation and every equip and proficiency, and stats difference. (it's harder to balance this).

I think if Tenboro make the comparison it would be more valid since he knows the base % value damage and

can test the comparison.

This post has been edited by Frostbite: Nov 5 2013, 06:39

Te thread title is 'Mage Damage Output Test', it is easy to find out such a test can't cover the title.

My purpose of make such a test is to do the fisrt step, to guarantee the system works well.

I hope others can join the test too, contribute some data,idea or do some further study.
This work should be done step by step. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Anyway my resourse are limited. More help will be welcome! (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

This post has been edited by gc00018: Nov 5 2013, 19:53

Oh, politics... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Isn't imperil and dark imperil can be paired so that Dark damage can be inflicted higher than Fire ( which can't ) ?

If I'm correct you can debuff twice using Dark/Holy rather than once if you use elemental.

So it's a given if Fire inflicts higher damage using imperil rather than Dark using Dark Imperil ? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

And I think, it's hard just to decide 'Mage Damage Output Test' comparison if only using this small percentage

of data. ( But you have done a good job anyway ).

I mean there ARE lots of variables regarding this mage damage output mechanics, including each monster has

different mitigation and every equip and proficiency, and stats difference. (it's harder to balance this).

I think if Tenboro make the comparison it would be more valid since he knows the base % value damage and

can test the comparison.

I think I understand what you're trying to say, but
Dark Imperil = Ability
Imperil = Spell