[X] My Assistant

remember the difference between Parry and PMI: parrying a hit means you won't see it at all. having 80% PMI means you will still be hit by 20% of its firepower, and lowering it too much may mean you will fall quite under Spirit Shield's threshold

personally i think it's safer to gamble on Parry than on PMI (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Yep.

Plus I'm still on the school of thought that PMi is overly overrated.
Damage logs don't tell the truth about incoming damage, physical hits aren't that overwhelming compared to magical neither the ones that surpass the spirit shield threshold.
The most number of hits received is physical because every monster uses its melee attack every turn.
And melee attacks of monsters are weak as fuck...even if they crit and you don't block anything in one turn, you'll take something about 5-7k from a full round of 10 monsters.
I think that it's better to invest on specific mitigations (elements, crushing, slashing and piercing) instead of PMi/MMi.
Plus PMi and MMi have very high base values so adding more would bring a lower result.
(For example a Dampening shield is a good thing for 1H since Crushing mit is ~40 and with that shield you can reach around 50, that it's better than some PMi from a Protection one)

This post has been edited by ppp82p: Jun 16 2016, 18:16

Maybe your nimble has a worse roll than your slaughter, and plus it's almost unforged (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Sure, my slaughter has PMax-0.01, but my nimble is not bad either, like PMax-0.4 or something like that.
The problem is, the parry difference between the two rapier actually ends up halved.
And the more level you get the more it gets reduced.

Both would give about 4-5% less incoming damage (20% more parries or 75~>80 pmi).

Which, for high level players, is worth nothing.

But dropping the weapon makes you lose 400 adb, maybe 800 with forging.
Dropping five slaugher makes you lose more than 1000 adb WITHOUT forging.

More like 500 with medium forging, maybe little more than 600 for level near 500 and lvl 100 forge.
1000 from slaughter is peerless slaughter (200+M set) vs peerless non slaughter at level 400+.

Also the difference in PMi, adjusted at a similar level, would be less than 20% (~18%) (since it's less than 20% more parries the number still somewhat match).

Anyway, there is still no reason to get a nimble rapier and even less reason not to have slaughter heavy if you can afford it (problem is, most can't, while a good elemental rapier of slaughter is quite cheap).
Nothing we really didn't know already.

remember the difference between Parry and PMI: parrying a hit means you won't see it at all. having 80% PMI means you will still be hit by 20% of its firepower, and lowering it too much may mean you will fall quite under Spirit Shield's threshold

Which is a good thing since you consume a lot more spirit than mana in a PFUDORfest.
Also you need less spirit draughts for normal arenas.
That's why jug is still good even for 1H, it saves spirit.

I think that it's better to invest on specific mitigations (elements, crushing, slashing and piercing) instead of PMi/MMi.

That is AAA bullshit.
Elemental mitigations are not good, they are crap (also slashing is more or less completely useless).
Just use the script that tracks incoming damage and see for youself.
You always theorycraft about incoming damage but I never saw you giving any numbers supporting your theories.

That is AAA bullshit.
Elemental mitigations are not good, they are crap (also slashing is more or less completely useless).
Just use the script that tracks incoming damage and see for youself.
You always theorycraft about incoming damage but I never saw you giving any numbers supporting your theories.

I'll repeat myself, that script tracks all the attacks you get, even the useless ones that don't even scratch you but occur every turn, and "casually" they're the majority of incoming damage.
And strong hits are fewer due to stuns and the fact you kill fast, but these damages are the ones that trigger your SS and make you struggle in deep pfudorfest.
Numbers from scripts won't help.

Plus there's no real difference for 1H between slashing and piercing incoming hits, so why do you say that only slashing mit is useless? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

You didn't quote my last part so I'll assume it's right (about crushing damage for 1H)

Also, my point was another.
It's true that at high level you go full slaughter and you don't look back.
But I still see high leveled people that replace some piece with protection claiming their superiority among the other suffixes, while past a certain point they're useless in the same way of the others.
For that people would be useful to know that changing the rapier only would make the same result but with less adb loss and a slight boost on counter chance. And it's cheaper.

If you bring the comparison to lower levels, then all changes...even though is claimed as good, protection suffix on non plate is even crappier...

Plus there's no real difference for 1H between slashing and piercing incoming hits, so why do you say that only slashing mit is useless? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

i guess because Piercing can still be exploited against Shaders. either way, Slashing SP attacks are indeed powerful. just saying.

But I still see high leveled people that replace some piece with protection claiming their superiority among the other suffixes, while past a certain point they're useless in the same way of the others.
For that people would be useful to know that changing the rapier only would make the same result but with less adb loss and a slight boost on counter chance. And it's cheaper.

never understood this. if boosting ADB is really the way to go, why suddenly dropping a bunch of ADB to raise your PMI by a tiny bit? at this point, why not going for Parry which boosts both your defense and your offense? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)
afterall, even if we take this:

~7% * (1 - 0.638) = 2.5% effective parry difference (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

it still means +1.9 Counter Chance. is it really that deprecable? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Which is a good thing since you consume a lot more spirit than mana in a PFUDORfest.

well, it's not like i did PFfests, so i cannot really say so much about this. i'll simply guess you're right (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

Also you need less spirit draughts for normal arenas.

well, if Draughts are really what you're worried about, you should already know that with 1k worth of completing an arena you will be able to afford 50~100 Draughts, depending on who's the seller. and it's not like you can burn the whole supply of SP restored in less than 50 turns.
i don't really see the point here (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

That's why jug is still good even for 1H, it saves spirit.

yep, nobody says Jug is not good. simply (in other threads) it's hinted that for standard, non-hardcore 1Hers is not worth to waste hundreds of amnesias to reach Jug5 on all pieces since it's basically needed only on very, very long quests. most likely having an average of Jug2~3 on every piece is already good enough for a moderate player

If you bring the comparison to lower levels, then all changes...even though is claimed as good, protection suffix on non plate is even crappier...

i second this. even more if you consider that low-levels may have trouble with SP tank and surely won't do PFfests, so raising the chance to completely avoid one physical hit every... uh... 10? 15? whatever - rather than to lower the effects of every hit by 1% or so may seem more worth to me.
even more if you consider that the amount of PMI added by every piece is mitigated by multiplicative addition with all the other pieces, so most likely having even a single outstanding one isn't that different from having a mid tier one

This post has been edited by Scremaz: Jun 16 2016, 23:42

i guess because Piercing can still be exploited against Shaders. either way, Slashing SP attacks are indeed powerful. just saying.
never understood this. if boosting ADB is really the way to go, why suddenly dropping a bunch of ADB to raise your PMI by a tiny bit? at this point, why not going for Parry which boosts both your defense and your offense? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)
afterall, even if we take this:

i second this. even more if you consider that low-levels may have trouble with SP tank and surely won't do PFfests, so raising the chance to completely avoid one physical hit every... uh... 10? 15? whatever - rather than to lower the effects of every hit by 1% or so may seem more worth to me.
even more if you consider that the amount of PMI added by every piece is mitigated by multiplicative addition with all the other pieces, so most likely having even a single outstanding one isn't that different from having a mid tier one

Yup, mostly because a lot of monster have the choice of the melee attack and the word piercing is more appealing for some reason (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)...maybe because piercing weapons stack PA and they're stronger for players (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The very big problem at lower level is the lack of abilities, low scaled values and less effective pabs due to the formula that regulates exp cost of each attribute...low levels need balanced stats, if you go 5 protection you'll get holes in MMi that are bad, if you go 5 warding you're somewhat balanced but your low crushing/slashing/piercing mit may hinder you physically if you don't play 1h with a good shield (difficult to get at low level, and, let's face it, unassigned shields stats suck (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) ) or dw with a nimble weapon in offhand (and when you're low level your choices are more limited in weapons). So going for example, for Armor and Leggings of Protection and Helmet, Gauntlets and Boots of Warding would be a reasonable way to get that balance.

At high levels all changes, at least for 1h...past a certain point you go slaughter and goodbye.

This post has been edited by ppp82p: Jun 16 2016, 23:58

Lv 393 (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

Lv.385 with 3500 MDB!

I got my law enforcement's armorer certification and credentials completed. No, i'm not a cop, but I do work on their weaponry. This means I get to work and play with the guns that got the full-auto "fun switch"

Unlocked 19th and 20th monster slots (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

352 Staff proficiency lul.

36 artifacts ~ 4 ED , welp (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

I did a PFUDOR DwD for the first time
1 hour (including a break to take a shit), 2,8 turns per second

This gave me:
a drop: Magnificent Crappy Leather Breastplate of the Sucks-Big-Time
a new title: "jason dononvan"(if I recall correctly)

(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I'll repeat myself, that script tracks all the attacks you get, even the useless ones that don't even scratch you but occur every turn, and "casually" they're the majority of incoming damage.
And strong hits are fewer due to stuns and the fact you kill fast, but these damages are the ones that trigger your SS and make you struggle in deep pfudorfest.
Numbers from scripts won't help.

Damage is still damage either way.
Even if you take only 5k damage per turn from normal attacks if your regen is lower or close to that you're still going to need cure/full-cure at some point.
Attacks going over SS threshold are a bigger threat for sure, but not so much to disregard the whole picture.

Plus there's no real difference for 1H between slashing and piercing incoming hits, so why do you say that only slashing mit is useless? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

From RE (I only track incoming damage in my RE browser)
[Damage] Average: 997 / Crushing: 31% / Piercing: 24% / Void: 11% / Slashing: 9% / Holy: 7% / Fire: 3% / Wind: 3% / Cold: 3% / Dark: 3% / Elec: 1%.
Note that I current have 3 slaughter, 1 protection and 1 balance (full slaughter would have slightly more physical damage).
Specific mitigations are (32.8% Fire - 29.6% Cold - 54.4% Elec - 23.2% Wind -37.6% Holy - 12.0%Dark - 45.5% Crushing - 58.0%Slashing - 57.2%Piercing)

You didn't quote my last part so I'll assume it's right (about crushing damage for 1H)

Yes, crushing protection is quite good for 1H, and even piercing is not that bad.
I only quoted the part that could actually mislead other users

But I still see high leveled people that replace some piece with protection claiming their superiority among the other suffixes, while past a certain point they're useless in the same way of the others.
For that people would be useful to know that changing the rapier only would make the same result but with less adb loss and a slight boost on counter chance. And it's cheaper.

Replacing slaughter with protection?
I hardly doubt that.
I could understand replacing 2PAB mag slaughter maybe, but that's it.

And I still think that protection is superior to other suffixes, except for slaughter and maybe balance.

If you bring the comparison to lower levels, then all changes...even though is claimed as good, protection suffix on non plate is even crappier...

I did not track damage taken at that time, but I doubt that power of protection is worse than the alternatives at "mid level".
Sure, I wouldn't go with 5 protection since the bonus is multiplicative, but that's it.

well, if Draughts are really what you're worried about, you should already know that with 1k worth of completing an arena you will be able to afford 50~100 Draughts, depending on who's the seller. and it's not like you can burn the whole supply of SP restored in less than 50 turns.
i don't really see the point here (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

The problem is not the price, is the time wasted using the draught (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)
Cred/turn value is also probably a lot higher than the cost of spirit draughts (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

I got my law enforcement's armorer certification and credentials completed. No, i'm not a cop, but I do work on their weaponry. This means I get to work and play with the guns that got the full-auto "fun switch"

is it only my impression or you're quite active in that Orlando topic? just saying...
[edit]: and now that i think about it, even "Horny" on the forum of a porn site is a nice business card (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

From RE (I only track incoming damage in my RE browser)
[Damage] Average: 997 / Crushing: 31% / Piercing: 24% / Void: 11% / Slashing: 9% / Holy: 7% / Fire: 3% / Wind: 3% / Cold: 3% / Dark: 3% / Elec: 1%.

but it's obvious. this is the result of Slashing damage not actually exploiting any specific vulnerability, thus been less used. the only istance it may be actually useful may be against mages, but in that case Piercing would still be superior because it would exploit also Shaders - thus, a multi-purpose against a single-purpose.
and btw, since also a few Crushing/Piercing/Slashing attacks can be magical type, we still don't have a reliable data about the physical/magical ratio.

in short, you're not looking at the cause, you're looking at the effect

And I still think that protection is superior to other suffixes, except for slaughter and maybe balance.

care to fully explain why, please? seriously, i don't get why a tiny increase in your PMI should be superior to a bunch of Parry boost (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

I did not track damage taken at that time, but I doubt that power of protection is worse than the alternatives at "mid level".

personally i think that Power of Warding is underestimated. just to start, apart for PMI/MMI, its stats are identical to - just saying - Protection's.
as for the hot part (which is PMI vs. MMI), you can clearly see from wiki that max PMI on Protection is almost identical to max MMI on Warding, but max MMI on Protection is higher than max PMI on Warding - which basically means a Warding should provide you better overall defense.
which is good especially for 1H starters, and especially since they come with a very cheap price.

The problem is not the price, is the time wasted using the draught (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)
Cred/turn value is also probably a lot higher than the cost of spirit draughts (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

are we already at that level? losing a second or two to cast a draught affects the choosing of your whole build, letting apart all your reasonings about this game? and i wonder how many others think this way...
is this still a game, at least? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

This post has been edited by Scremaz: Jun 17 2016, 12:15

in short, you're not looking at the cause, you're looking at the effect

No, I was just stating a fact, that slashing mitigation is not useful with the current meta.
You and ppp82p discussed about the cause of that, and I agree with your conclusions.
Still doesn't change the fact that is not useful at the moment.

care to fully explain why, please? seriously, i don't get why a tiny increase in your PMI should be superior to a bunch of Parry boost (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

Because there is no power of nimble?
It's not like there are a millions of possibilities when choosing heavy power (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

and btw, since also a few Crushing/Piercing/Slashing attacks can be magical type, we still don't have a reliable data about the physical/magical ratio.

Well, elemental attacks can be physical, so imho it is somewhat balanced, but sure, to get the perfect physical/magical ratio you would need to track the attack type and not the damage.

personally i think that Power of Warding is underestimated. just to start, apart for PMI/MMI, its stats are identical to - just saying - Protection's.
as for the hot part (which is PMI vs. MMI), you can clearly see from wiki that max PMI on Protection is almost identical to max MMI on Warding, but max MMI on Protection is higher than max PMI on Warding - which basically means a Warding should provide you better overall defense.

The difference in MMI vs PMI is because otherwise Warding would be utterly useless, just like crushing/slashing/piercing suffix gives much more % than protection or warding.
Still, considering that it's very likely than at least 2/3 of the damage comes from physical, Protection is still the suffix that contributes the most to the player defenses.
If you think this is not correct you should try to get some numbers about mmi vs pmi, more theory-crafting is not gonna solve anything I fear. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

Note that I don't think Warding is particularly worse than Protection, let's say that if I would pay a Protection 10 I would value a similarly Warding 8 or 9.

are we already at that level? losing a second or two to cast a draught affects the choosing of your whole build, letting apart all your reasonings about this game? and i wonder how many others think this way...
is this still a game, at least? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Welcome to min-maxing.
And anyway, compared to the hours spent on D&D manuals to find a broken strategy this is nothing (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

This post has been edited by Sapo84: Jun 17 2016, 13:02

Bough 200 tickets for the armor lotto
Don't know if I should buy more (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Bough 200 tickets for the armor lotto
Don't know if I should buy more (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

If you want to win, definitely. 200/20000 is almost useless.
You need at least 5000 tickets to stand a solid chance.

If you want to win, definitely. 200/20000 is almost useless.
You need at least 5000 tickets to stand a solid chance.

34 minutes left (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cry.gif)

If that's the case then I won't buy more lol.
Not winning is one thing, losing money for no reason is another.

No, I was just stating a fact, that slashing mitigation is not useful with the current meta.
You and ppp82p discussed about the cause of that, and I agree with your conclusions.
Still doesn't change the fact that is not useful at the moment.

oh, yep. undoubtly.

Because there is no power of nimble?
It's not like there are a millions of possibilities when choosing heavy power (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

sooooo... why not going full Power of Slaughter and equipping - saying - a Rapier of Slaughter for arenas and a Rapier of Nimble for GF? it's just another chance (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Well, elemental attacks can be physical, so imho it is somewhat balanced, but sure, to get the perfect physical/magical ratio you would need to track the attack type and not the damage.

in the time i would need to collect such datas they will be already obsoletes, i guess. so thanks but no thanks (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

If you think this is not correct you should try to get some numbers [...], more theory-crafting is not gonna solve anything I fear. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

it's very likely than at least 2/3 of the damage comes from physical, Protection is still the suffix that contributes the most to the player defenses.

(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Welcome to min-maxing.
And anyway, compared to the hours spent on D&D manuals to find a broken strategy this is nothing (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

thanks, but no thanks. at least cleavages have a positive effect on your health.

Bough 200 tickets for the armor lotto
Don't know if I should buy more (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

you know, there are higherups who buy regularly 20k tickets. if you compare yourself to them, it's not like 20 or 200 tickets will change so much. still better than zero though (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Not winning is one thing, losing money for no reason is another.

definitely.

sooooo... why not going full Power of Slaughter and equipping - saying - a Rapier of Slaughter for arenas and a Rapier of Nimble for GF? it's just another chance (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Or simply going full power of slaughter + rapier of slaughter for everything (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)
Really, I don't think that defenses are the problem in GF (at my level at least) but it may be useful for lvl350-400, sure.

(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Well, I'm guessing from collected damage data, you pointed out that it's possible for magical attacks to have crushing/piercing/slashing damage and for physical to have elemental data.
Since you cannot see magical vs physical from battle logs the best we can do is approximate it (and since those kind of attacks are few I don't think it's a bad approximation).
If there were better way to estimate the usefulness of Warding I would understand discussing it again, since there are none I think the whole "warding is underestimated" is 95% speculations and 5% facts.