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Current wiki equations are simple multiplicatives (base*Tank ability*HathPerk),

CODE

Health Points = (500 + (Level * 10) + (END * 6)) * HP Tank * vigorous_vitality
Magic Points = (10 + Level + WIS) * MP Tank * effluent_ether
Spirit Points = (1 + (STR + DEX + AGI + END + INT + WIS) / 5) * SP Tank * suffusive_spirit
Any potions/gems/spells modifying player's HP/MP/SP refers to player's base HP/MP/SP (i.e. before ability bonuses are applied).

which makes single Jug/Cap level 5 looks like a real 10% gain. I suppose it should look something like this?

base*potions/gems/spells modifiers + base*XX Tank*Hath Perk

base*(potions/gems/spells modifiers + XX Tank*Hath Perk)

IW is surely worth doing but Juggernaut may be slightly overrated I guess is the result of this latest discussion. I saw a few strong players with max forge armors and terrible potencies or unfinished IW.

The best thing about Juggernaut is that it's the only potency that can help against void damage. The worst thing is that Juggernaut could be considered fake HP as it doesn't improve the amount of Cure, Regen, or Draught. If you are weak enough to be beaten down slowly then Juggernaut won't help, its HP is only a buffer to survive isolated damage spikes. If you are so strong you can't ever die then you don't need it either.

on almost every grindfest received more fire damage than dark damage in total. the elements that I usually receive less damage than dark are cold and elec... I don't think those undeads are that much problem in the end.

Total damage taken is not the only way to consider the importance of each damage type. How much damage you could take in a single huge blow, even though it's much more rare, is also important because that's what make you occasionally spark or lose spirit.

By volume of damage, crushing/slashing/piercing and physical damage are by far the most common, that is why everyone goes for protection suffix. But warding is what heavy armor users need to fend off the rare blows that drain spirit. After we discussed warding last year I have noticed that prices for the protection suffix have dropped. Warding is still least popular.

Dark is the most rare damage type from regular monsters because only undeads should use them, and only some undeads do. It can be either physical or magical but undeads have better physical stats, so most of their dark attacks can be parried. Yet the extremely rare ones that hit can hurt if you have low dark mitigation.

Current wiki equations are simple multiplicatives (base*Tank ability*HathPerk),

CODE

Health Points = (500 + (Level * 10) + (END * 6)) * HP Tank * vigorous_vitality
Magic Points = (10 + Level + WIS) * MP Tank * effluent_ether
Spirit Points = (1 + (STR + DEX + AGI + END + INT + WIS) / 5) * SP Tank * suffusive_spirit
Any potions/gems/spells modifying player's HP/MP/SP refers to player's base HP/MP/SP (i.e. before ability bonuses are applied).

which makes single Jug/Cap level 5 looks like a real 10% gain. I suppose it should look something like this?

base*potions/gems/spells modifiers + base*XX Tank*Hath Perk

base*(potions/gems/spells modifiers + XX Tank*Hath Perk)

I thought I did write how "HP tank" was made in that page. Looks like I did not and need to do it in the future.
So the "HP tank" here refers to (HP tank ability + Juggernaut + Heavy HP + Light HP/MP). They are all additive.

So, for a mage, the first Jug5 increases the total HP by only 5%, and then subsequent have a lower effect. For 1H, the effect is lower than that.

The worst thing is that Juggernaut could be considered fake HP as it doesn't improve the amount of Cure, Regen, or Draught. If you are weak enough to be beaten down slowly then Juggernaut won't help, its HP is only a buffer to survive isolated damage spikes. If you are so strong you can't ever die then you don't need it either.

It still increase the efficiency for spirit shield and full cure, and if jug didn't help then any other proficiency won't help either.
While it's true that strong ones are not necessarily need jug, it turns into a luxury that could shaft your clear time by decreasing time when you have to cure, simply because your buffer is long enough that those 'isolated damage spikes' won't force you to stop and cast cure.

Total damage taken is not the only way to consider the importance of each damage type. How much damage you could take in a single huge blow, even though it's much more rare, is also important because that's what make you occasionally spark or lose spirit.

By volume of damage, crushing/slashing/piercing and physical damage are by far the most common, that is why everyone goes for protection suffix. But warding is what heavy armor users need to fend off the rare blows that drain spirit. After we discussed warding last year I have noticed that prices for the protection suffix have dropped. Warding is still least popular.

Dark is the most rare damage type from regular monsters because only undeads should use them, and only some undeads do. It can be either physical or magical but undeads have better physical stats, so most of their dark attacks can be parried. Yet the extremely rare ones that hit can hurt if you have low dark mitigation.

true, but still, it's 2.5x more resistance yet still taking 10~30% more damage. From normal monsters, dark-elemental damage is much more uncommon compared to fire, that's a fact.

not everyone goes for protection, cotton of protection doesn't sell. and why you're talking about crush/slash/pierce when we're talking about elemental mitigation, from armor potency moreover.

also, it's funny that you diminish juggernaut for 'only a buffer to survive isolated damage spikes' yet push the necessity for dark mitigation because of 'extremely rare ones that hurt', choice supportive bias?

Only 3% remain. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

And no, you dont actually want to know how many ED it did cost me to do this. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Only 2% remain. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

It still increase the efficiency for spirit shield and full cure, and if jug didn't help then any other proficiency won't help either. also, it's funny that you diminish juggernaut for 'only a buffer to survive isolated damage spikes' yet push the necessity for dark mitigation because of 'extremely rare ones that hurt', choice supportive bias?

Although this recent discussion makes me think less of Juggernaut, I still think it is the best potency. If it has a rival, it could only be Holyproof. All others are much below. And as someone who thinks Darkproof is third best, as you said this means I have to like Juggernaut more.

But after today I think it's less necessary to get Jug25 on 1H. We should consider how good the equipment is and whether it is worth the cost. Jug5 doesn't cost too much but 2-potency Jug5 + Any5 costs a lot, and Jug5 + Holy5 costs even more. So maybe it's not a bad idea to keep Holy5 + Dark5, or Holy5 + Fire5.

(IMG:[i.imgur.com] https://i.imgur.com/DyAZT3k.png)
drained 60M to 15M for training and perks

-snip-

E-peenis contests declared that even for 1H, one should have Jug25 or nothing. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

E-peenis contests declared that even for 1H, one should have Jug25 or nothing. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

speaking of e-penises...

monster slot 87

monster slot 88

and IW must be Jug5 Cap5, if not, retry (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

and IW must be Jug5 Cap5, if not, retry (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

J5C5Cold1 (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

J5C5Cold1 (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

that's eleven potencies
but i do have some of those failed IWs (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cry.gif)

that's eleven potencies
but i do have some of those failed IWs (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cry.gif)

Oh I meant J4

afk for 1 month accomplished...

afk for 1 month accomplished...

welcome back dude

4 hours of IW and 25 shards without getting Jug5.

4 hours of IW and 25 shards without getting Jug5.

That's unfortunate... 25 shards should be possible in half that time. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

That's unfortunate... 25 shards should be possible in half that time. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

Allways those mage comments. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/duck.gif)

That's unfortunate... 25 shards should be possible in half that time. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

What do you think I've been wasting these for? It's obviously so that I can become way faster thanks to the fast way, the mage way. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/duck.gif)

snip

Yeah, some time ago someone made a detailed report of damage taken over a quite long time, and I made some math (removing his resistances) and came to the conclusion that player side, the ranking of resistances is:
Holy >>>>>>>> Elec >> Fire >>>> Cold >>> Dark >>>>>>>>>>>> Wind

Here is the post with all the links I used.

E-peenis contests declared that even for 1H, one should have Jug25 or nothing. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

1h actually benefits more from it since having higher hp makes the spirit shield threshold higher, thus not filtering "trash" damage and saving you SP for the Stance (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


edit: oh and also, about the debate about juggernaut, here.
Resistances themselves are a stronger layer than juggernaut, but only against one type of damage.
Aka in any case the best set is to have high levels of the best resistances along with Juggernaut.

So the only advice would be: the best is NOT going blindly for Jug 5 and then stop, but instead going for Jug 5 + Good Res 5 for EVERY piece.

This post has been edited by Juggernaut Santa: Oct 15 2018, 03:04

I see this discussion started half a year ago but I was only half interested back then since I wore rags.

The best thing about Juggernaut is that it's the only potency that can help against void damage. The worst thing is that Juggernaut doesn't improve the amount of Cure, Regen, or Draught, its HP is only a buffer to survive isolated damage spikes.

I stated the best and worst of Juggernaut but had thought about the other features too. 1H does benefit more by making Spirit Shield less trigger happy. On the other hand Sapo84 pointed out for every hit Juggernaut saves SP on, you may spend extra MP in its place to cure yourself. You can also argue that the HP buffer of Juggernaut is made useless by Spirit Shield, which uses slightly more SP to compensate.

In theory Juggernaut could save MP if you heal yourself at the same HP position as if you had no Juggernaut. But if you do that then Juggernaut's primary benefit of being a void damage buffer is lost. 1H players should probably heal at the HP position where Cure isn't wasted. So Juggernaut players heal earlier and save no MP.

Elemental resistances on the other hand save both SP and MP. When they activate the damage is truly removed. They may not apply nearly as often as Juggernaut but each time they do the amount of reduction is five times greater and real. If void damage didn't exist, I might prefer every elemental resistance to Juggernaut.