[X] My Assistant

I'd rather have 2 CT per 1 ToB (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

i said i like it.. not i LOVE it...

@Joe/DYasha: being able to sell them is an incentive against dupe accounts(tokenizer is expensive). Being able to buy CT..might make dupe accounting little easier logistically, but getting few CT for slots isn't much of a problem.

Being able to buy blood tokens could indeed be strong incentive for dupes depending on how much would sell them, since RoB is limited to 1/day.

But even leaving that issue alone, I'm against the idea. Tokens is one part of the game that you can't truly fix with money - true, you can get tokenizer but that still needs you to play a decent amount of time.

@MSimm1: given that you can exchange blood for chaos, I prefer blood. But it is just RNG, it will average out over time.

This post has been edited by Lement: Jul 30 2013, 07:07

I'm against the idea. Tokens is one part of the game that you can't truly fix with money - true, you can get tokenizer but that still needs you to play a decent amount of time.

Darn... dont wanna.. but AGREE.

Arxdewn: Doesn't OFC have higher damage, overall, than Frenzies Blows? Why are you campaigning for FB then? You should instead ask that OFC be 0-CD (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Oh, and thirty turns is pure lies. Pack some Soul Stones/energy drinks for OC like mage packs mana pots, and spam FB every 11 turns XD. Or use Holy, spam paradise lost every 6 turns(at your level).

If you'd like to donate a set of ponies, then I'll start making that argument.
When mage spells cost as much as one full mana pot, AND mana pots only come from artifacts that would be a fair point.

50%+ Specific Mitigations are not uncommon (especially for Elemental). Also, for that 5x damage, we're going to be taking your mana pool. The only mage attack that uses negligible MP is T1 Elemental (and even that starts adding up pretty fast on schoolgirls given how much resist and HP they have even after Imperil).

Also, I'm pretty sure the multipliers for skills aren't correct in the wiki, but the spell multipliers are (verified from AP assignments and directly from Tenboro in some cases). I know I can hit for 4k with 3x PA on a mob (plus however much from strikes), and then Great Cleave for 37k (no stance or crit on either). That 4k is pretty close to my Base Damage, 37k certainly isn't close to Base Damage x 2.5, so I think they were changed when OC was removed as a factor in skill damage calculation. I don't have the DW prof to test FB, but I have good reason to suspect that each hit is more powerful than a simple no-strikes no-offhand DW hit.

It would appear FB has a 2.5x base damage modifier, you are right.
Using cold as an example, it's an average of 10% damage reduction from specific mitigations (2x 133%, 2x 100%, 2x 200%, 8x 80% damage). That's before imperil rips off 50% resistance, which is around a 66% damage boost (25 to -25). If you say monsters are boosted with +20 chaos, that brings the normal case of 45 resistance to -5, approximately double damage.

Slowpoke reporting in.


>Follower of Snowflake Displays your unyielding devotion to Snowflake, the Goddess of Loot and Harvest.

What.

Slowpoke reporting in.
>Follower of Snowflake Displays your unyielding devotion to Snowflake, the Goddess of Loot and Harvest.

What.

Go for it and tell us what it does exactly. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

It would appear FB has a 2.5x base damage modifier, you are right.
Using cold as an example, it's an average of 10% damage reduction from specific mitigations (2x 133%, 2x 100%, 2x 200%, 8x 80% damage). That's before imperil rips off 50% resistance, which is around a 66% damage boost (25 to -25). If you say monsters are boosted with +20 chaos, that brings the normal case of 45 resistance to -5, approximately double damage.

I don't think a -50 is 200% damage, it's only 150%. After 20 resist (which is what the baseline, PL 500 cannon fodder tier dudes will be packing), it's 2x 115%, 1x 95%, 2x 75%, 8x 55%, averaging 30% reduction with a mode of 45% (and I believe the average is actually closer to that mode since Reptilians are not popular while Giants, Mechs, Undead are everywhere).

As for Imperil, it's not free, and several of the more annoying monsters are effectively invulnerable if not Imperiled. It costs MP and actions to do this and can be (read: will be) resisted/evaded. Those actions matter when you've got 7+ guys trying to take a chunk out of your squishy ass, especially when you don't have it down to 0 CD. We don't have silly things like specific mits or END from gear or HP from prof or parry from weapons to just tank that shit.

There's a very interesting little dynamic going on with Imperil between how it works for Elemental and for Holy/Dark. It does more for Elemental (and is needed more often), but Elemental's threshold for caring enough to Imperil is higher, since I can throw 2 T1s for the cost of the Imperil, while Holy/Dark T1 costs more than the Imperil does. Elemental will only Imperil if it saves at least 2 T1s or a likely Cure (otherwise we'd just blast em), while Holy/Dark saves mana if it saves any offensive casts at all.

Slowpoke reporting in.
>Follower of Snowflake Displays your unyielding devotion to Snowflake, the Goddess of Loot and Harvest.

What.

"i spent 50000 hath and all i got was this lousy t-shirt" (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Regarding auctions 2-to-1 ratio doesn't really matter all that much in the rates of equipment drops multipliers, especially when one is 'supposed' to be more popular. Highest price I've seen on element phase before was 3 mil, now 1.65 mil - granted, 'before' is a longer period, but there seems to have been notable general drop. Meanwhile mag holy can go for 12.5m and leg for 18m.

Well, my point is an auction can't tell us the ture value of some equipment,it only shows us how many people at that time(end time) want this piece. And rare piece will attract far more people.
Just imagine if you can buy equipment everywhere, why you have to abandon your sleep to fight in auction?

Best element phase always trade in private(TBH,me too (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)), I know some(4+) trade between 3m and 5m last week.(and a nice one with leg edb and leg wis is selling now (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) )

To be addition, the rate is not 2 to 1 becuase there are many old phase (before 0.76) which are equally superior in the market waiting to be sell.
People held these phase in hand before 0.76 and suddenly found "WOW..a element phase can be sold so high, let's clean them out before next patch". (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

I think if there are no market factor, element can be sold 2-4 time than now which is about 6 - 20m.

given that you don't imperil everything even on iwbth.

Hah, you mention it! the key point: too powerful imperil.
Do you believe one don't imp everything in iwbth? Now the circle for mages: imp everything --> Tier3 kill most of they --> Tier1 kill resist one .
It take 5~7 turn to clear a round even with 10 monster.
If monster less than 6, just change t3 into t2 which lead to a 2~4 turn kill.

With imp, the resist adventage of holy can be ignore. Not only because of more powerful element imp (50%),but also the profit gain form anti-resist is lower when anti-resist became higher.For example, 75% to 50% mean 2x danmage 25% to 0% means 1.33x damage.

I think there need some work to reqpair the holy-dark or fire-ice-lightning-wind circle, not only buff a fire-fire-fire-fire-fire-fire.. one. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

By the way, even the damage output of holy is higher, can it match the superior-low-cost adventage of element spell (like Tier1 29 to 14 (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )?

I don't think a -50 is 200% damage, it's only 150%. After 20 resist (which is what the baseline, PL 500 cannon fodder tier dudes will be packing), it's 2x 115%, 1x 95%, 2x 75%, 8x 55%, averaging 30% reduction with a mode of 45% (and I believe the average is actually closer to that mode since Reptilians are not popular while Giants, Mechs, Undead are everywhere).

That's not how math works. 45 resistance means you do 55% damage. -5 will mean you do 105. 105/55 = 1.91; or 91% damage increase, I just rounded to double for simplicity.

Hah, you mention it! the key point: too powerful imperil.
Do you believe one don't imp everything in iwbth? Now the circle for mages: imp everything --> Tier3 kill most of they --> Tier1 kill resist one .
It take 5~7 turn to clear a round even with 10 monster.
If monster less than 6, just change t3 into t2 which lead to a 2~4 turn kill.

With imp, the resist adventage of holy can be ignore. Not only because of more powerful element imp (50%),but also the profit gain form anti-resist is lower when anti-resist became higher.For example, 75% to 50% mean 2x danmage 25% to 0% means 1.33x damage.

I think there need some work to reqpair the holy-dark or fire-ice-lightning-wind circle, not only buff a fire-fire-fire-fire-fire-fire.. one. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

By the way, even the damage output of holy is higher, can it match the superior-low-cost adventage of element spell (like Tier1 29 to 14 (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )?

Yup, here it is in explicit detail: 5-7 rounds to kill 10 monsters. With DW that will take me ten times as many.

That's not how math works. 45 resistance means you do 55% damage. -5 will mean you do 105. 105/55 = 1.91; or 91% damage increase, I just rounded to double for simplicity.
Yup, here it is in explicit detail: 5-7 rounds to kill 10 monsters. With DW that will take me ten times as many.

Feel free to mage.

Maybe then you'll stop being ignorant.

@Arxdewn: DW is not suitable for killing 10 monsters, it is meant for endurance+low monster counts like eve of death or ring of blood. If you want to kill gf-amounts of monsters as melee, use 2h.

Even so, 60 turns shouldn't happen, given that you could, you know, use OFC or axe/rapier. (And lol@you not being able to afford ponies for OFC at 312.) And 5-7 turns is with seriously forged gear - the gf log I asked from ChosenUno(fully forged all phase and staff) still had 8 turns.

Here's the question: If DW(single-target) killed 10 monsters(the max) as fast as the most killing-speed oriented build(mage) without paying any resources for it, having vastly better defense and having the equips drop for it far more often, what is the point of, say, that same mage, 2h or niten? Since DW would be superior to all.

Or actually, scratch that. Better question:

If mage is so superior, why don't you mage? In fact, if mage is so superior why didn't you mage beforehand when mage was even faster if squishier(but you apparently don't care about defense or maximum depth at all, so this doesn't matter)?

'cause, you know, it takes about a day for you to get the profs - but that doesn't matter, since mage is apparently superior to DW even with 0 profs and crude equipment. In fact, the multipliers you post should mean that you should be casting spells in your DW gear, so why aren't you doing that yet?

@gc: Hum. IWBTH all-imperil...Hardly necessary, even with 3-target imperil, due splashing holy damage on undeads makes them go down a bit faster than imperiled celestia, no?

Imperil does somewhat mitigate the resist advantage of holy, but saying that it can be ignored is so huge of an exaggeration that it is false - elemental resist profile is a lot worse.

As for holy T2 matching elemental t3?(t2 to t3 because their MP cost is similar, with elemental t3 seeming to be tiny bit higher).

Holy damage: base at 310: 6/7.35 of elemental.

After the 10% damage loss of elemental from staff dropping 2 tiers(estimate): 6/(7.35*0.9)

after the 15%-25% loss from resist profile: 6/(6.615*0.85) to 6/(6.615*0.75) = 6,71% to 20.94% damage increase on each target when comparing t2 to t3. Of course, t2 has 7 targets and t3 9... But given that holy still has t3, this doesn't account for the better proc, and that same offense also saves mana on defensive buffs(duration) and curing, not to mention most importantly, time(both from offense and from that curing), I'd say that the sacrifice is quite good option - after all, the only place where you can't do more iterations faster is arenas, and getting to do iwbth on them is lot easier with the new survivability. Not to mention that SG arenas have much better arena clear.

Of course, all this is not even taking into account packing more mana pots and draining sp with dark/leeching mana with old ET with holy from drain, which is completely their own proc.

And I disagree with you about old supply

People held these phase in hand before 0.76 and suddenly found "WOW..a element phase can be sold so high, let's clean them out before next patch".

since I haven't seen single element phase selling "so high" (in public at least).


However, I agree that t3-t2-t1-t1-t1-t2-t1-t1-t1-t3 cycle isn't particularly interesting. Dark and holy are well distinguished from each other and elements, but elements from each other...aren't. As for progression we can agree on that, though fair note: with t2 drop rate buff, iwbth now drops more holy/dark staves than elemental ones.

This post has been edited by Lement: Jul 30 2013, 15:08

In case you didn't notice, Ring of Blood has 10 monsters now. The average monsters per round in arena is 4.8 (including the first ones, and schoolgirls). Grindfest/IW reach max enemies early on compared to total duration. In what world do you live in then where DW is suited to excel if not against multiple enemies?

If you actually had evidence that my multipliers were wrong, you would have said so instead of suggesting casting damage spells in non-mage equipment.

If mages can complain for 250 pages in a single thread instead of swapping to melee why can't melee complain back?

In case you didn't notice, Ring of Blood has 10 monsters now. The average monsters per round in arena is 4.8 (including the first ones, and schoolgirls). Grindfest/IW reach max enemies early on compared to total duration. In what world do you live in then where DW is suited to excel if not against multiple enemies?

If you actually had evidence that my multipliers were wrong, you would have said so instead of suggesting casting damage spells in non-mage equipment.

If mages can complain for 250 pages in a single thread instead of swapping to melee why can't melee complain back?

The real world? Have you even tried 2H? That's built for clearing multi-mobs, not DW. DW is for single target DPT.

As for multipliers, I won't argue with you there since I can't be arsed to math. But think about this: If Penetrated Armor is changed to a 3-target spell, with 0 cooldown and removes 100% armor, but costs 30 mana per cast, and can be easily resisted, would you use it? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

The real world? Have you even tried 2H? That's built for clearing multi-mobs, not DW. DW is for single target DPT.

As for multipliers, I won't argue with you there since I can't be arsed to math. But think about this: If Penetrated Armor is changed to a 3-target spell, with 0 cooldown and removes 100% armor, but costs 30 mana per cast, and can be easily resisted, would you use it? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Sounds like you're saying DW needs buffs.

Unfortunately the PA effect would run out before the enemies died to being whacked . . .

Sounds like you're saying DW needs buffs.

Unfortunately the PA effect would run out before the enemies died to being whacked . . .

I'll just list you under the "retarded" category since you seem to be pulling your ideas from the opposite pole of where you should be pulling ideas from.

PA effect would run out? PA lasts 7 turns, and since you said you kill 1 mob per 5-7 turns, you're a fucking liar (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'll just list you under the "retarded" category since you seem to be pulling your ideas from the opposite pole of where you should be pulling ideas from.

PA effect would run out? PA lasts 7 turns, and since you said you kill 1 mob per 5-7 turns, you're a fucking liar (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

oh yeah... a simple "i think you are wrong and i have info that demonstrate that fact" wouldnt make it... the raw finest of ChosenUno...

I believe that in the end the only ones who have the reason about all stuff are Tenboro and second God (read god as Skillchip).

mage is so OP XDD roflcopter

Yeah mage works so good I don't use my heavily forged Mag+ Set Heimdall Set any more!
Yeah I don't because throwing rocks at them kills faster.

That's not how math works. 45 resistance means you do 55% damage. -5 will mean you do 105. 105/55 = 1.91; or 91% damage increase, I just rounded to double for simplicity.

The -50 I referred to was the base -50 resist on some mobs, not the -50 from Imperil (which, for the record, neither of us is high enough level to reach, we're still at -45)

My math:

Starting -50, + 20 Resist Upgrades * 1.75 = -15, -> 115% damage before Imperil, 2 mob types
Starting -25, + 20 Resist Upgrades * 1.5 = +5, -> 95% damage before Imperil, 1 mob type
Starting 0, + 20 Resist Upgrades * 1.25 = +25, -> 75% damage before Imperil, 2 mob types
Starting +25, + 20 Resist Upgrades * 1 = +45, -> 55% damage before Imperil, 8 mob types
Giving a weighted average monster vulnerability of ~70.3%, which I rounded to 70% vulnerability, which is a 30% reduction in damage, and with more mob types at 55% vulnerability than the rest combined, the mode is pretty obviously going to be that 45 specific mitigation case.

Please explain your numbers with equal rigor: 200%, 133%, 100%, 80%. They look a lot like you did 1/(1+Base Specific Cold Resist), which is what I assumed they were on context. If they are, as you claim, damage ratio post Imperil to pre Imperil, I really want to see how you found something that takes 20% less damage after Imperil.


Regarding bitching vs switching, that's actually exactly what I did in the immediate aftermath of 0.76. Before patch I had gathered together a solid Nif set, and backup Fenrir and Estoc/Heavy sets. After patch, with T1 having CD, I stabbed people in the face until Tenboro got his log reader going and fixed that shit. Now I've returned to Cold, since if a mildly forged Leg weapon with Magnificent Phase can't beat a Fine Estoc and Exquisite Plate/Power combination, then something is horribly wrong.

This post has been edited by PK678353: Jul 30 2013, 23:11

I believe that in the end the only ones who have the reason about all stuff are Tenboro and second God (read god as Skillchip).

Psh, I just make shit up and you all eat it up