[X] My Assistant

Mage attack doesn't have a cooldown, at T1, T2 is 4/2 turns, and T3 is 7/4 turns. Frenzied blows takes about THIRTY. Using the logic of switching to 1h to use more OC skills, I can suggest you don't cast spells and instead whack enemies with a weapon. If you can want to use your most powerful spells in rapid succession, why can't dw expect the same?

Because you have a lot more defense compared to a mage.

In addition, Frenzied Blow hits at most 26 hits. With a 100% chance for OH-strike, that's 13x the damage of your normal strike, 26x if in SP stance (discounting stuff like bleed and strikes).

Meanwhile, holy's t3's multiplier is 7.5, and t1 4.5. That's only a 1.66x in damage, not fucking 13x, is it?

13 / 1.66 = 7.8x

So your special skill's increase in damage is 7.8x compared to going from t1 to t3 for holy. With Holy's cooldown at 4t at level 400, 4*7.8 = 31t for DW.

So why are you complaining about the 30 turns cooldown?

Because you have a lot more defense compared to a mage.

In addition, Frenzied Blow hits at most 26 hits. With a 100% chance for OH-strike, that's 13x the damage of your normal strike, 26x if in SP stance (discounting stuff like bleed and strikes).

Go look up the actual details cause what you post is just hilarious.

This post has been edited by Arxdewn: Jul 29 2013, 10:41

Go look up the actual details cause what you post is just hilarious.

EHWiki

CODE

Frenzied Blows (T3)    75    10    100    Go nuts.
Hits up to 5? adjacent enemies for a total of 10-26 hits (depends on the number of enemies).

So exactly what's so "hilarious" about my post?

(IMG:https://forums.e-hentai.org/uploads/post-106990-1375090476.gif)

It can't proc off hand weapon strikes, nor elemental strikes.
Given a hit always procs offhand, normal attacks are: 1 + .5 + .5 + .5 +.25 +.25 = 3.
Assuming its 10-26 hits evenly distributed, that's an average of 17 attacks, however, attacks do not distribute themselves, they overkill. Since the damage is so bursty, and can assign 9 hits to one monster with 50k hp even though only 2 are needed, a lot more damage is lost than normal.

Further detracting is the lack of weapon procs on hits. Attacks against penetrated monsters do multiple times as much damage. It's not possible to proc PA on 5 monsters to a 3 stack, let alone 1 before using FB. Attempting to stack it up drops their hp below the damage FB will do, causing more waste. At best you can expect it one 2 enemies, most likely 3 stacks on one target, 2 on a second.

Lastly, the skill has to be set up so that you cap out your OC when you want it, in the 210-250 range. If you max out your OC when there's only 2 monsters left, you can't even effectively use it. You can either SS down the last ones, you'll have to deactivate it to build back up; otherwise you can waste OC by overflowing, further increasing the value of just using SS over FB.

Given all that, under the best circumstances of single target, full effective damage, you get 5.6x normal attacks. When you account for lost PA on multiple targets, that effectiveness halves to 2.8x. If you consider the timing, increased real time to use, and overkill damage lost, the skill starts looking extremely situation, far from the keystone ability you seem to think it is.

Frenzied blows doesn't reach 26 hits anymore. It's been capped at 20 max for at least the last year. It's range is 10-20 hits.

It can't proc off hand weapon strikes, nor elemental strikes.
Given a hit always procs offhand, normal attacks are: 1 + .5 + .5 + .5 +.25 +.25 = 3.
Assuming its 10-26 hits evenly distributed, that's an average of 17 attacks, however, attacks do not distribute themselves, they overkill. Since the damage is so bursty, and can assign 9 hits to one monster with 50k hp even though only 2 are needed, a lot more damage is lost than normal.

Further detracting is the lack of weapon procs on hits. Attacks against penetrated monsters do multiple times as much damage. It's not possible to proc PA on 5 monsters to a 3 stack, let alone 1 before using FB. Attempting to stack it up drops their hp below the damage FB will do, causing more waste. At best you can expect it one 2 enemies, most likely 3 stacks on one target, 2 on a second.

Lastly, the skill has to be set up so that you cap out your OC when you want it, in the 210-250 range. If you max out your OC when there's only 2 monsters left, you can't even effectively use it. You can either SS down the last ones, you'll have to deactivate it to build back up; otherwise you can waste OC by overflowing, further increasing the value of just using SS over FB.

Given all that, under the best circumstances of single target, full effective damage, you get 5.6x normal attacks. When you account for lost PA on multiple targets, that effectiveness halves to 2.8x. If you consider the timing, increased real time to use, and overkill damage lost, the skill starts looking extremely situation, far from the keystone ability you seem to think it is.

Okay.

Meanwhile, mage spells have to deal with huge damage reductions from specific mitigations AND magical mitigations, both of which can't be negated without using imperil, which costs mana. Penetrated Armor is free. Void damage type is free.

Furthermore, mage spells are plagued with resists. Again, mage spells cost mana. Melee skills can't be avoided/parried off. OC is free to gain.

Finally, mages don't have the survivability that DWers have. Every resist can mean death to a mage. DWers just shrugs when parried.

Tell you what. If you think FB is bad, you're free to not use it and instead use Orbital Friendship Cannon, how about that? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Okay.

Meanwhile, mage spells have to deal with huge damage reductions from specific mitigations AND magical mitigations, both of which can't be negated without using imperil, which costs mana. Penetrated Armor is free. Void damage type is free.

Furthermore, mage spells are plagued with resists. Again, mage spells cost mana. Melee skills can't be avoided/parried off. OC is free to gain.

Finally, mages don't have the survivability that DWers have. Every resist can mean death to a mage. DWers just shrugs when parried.

Tell you what. If you think FB is bad, you're free to not use it and instead use Orbital Friendship Cannon, how about that? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Exactly, people don't use it except to kill a schoolgirl or fsm, and even that is barely worth it.

Melee skills cant be avoided, but the normal hits that build up to them can be parried and evaded. At an average of 15 hits, that's 15x base damage, regardless of enemies. Using a T3's 7.5 multiplier, against 4 enemies that's 30x base damage. Against 9 enemies every roundin a grindfest, that's 67.5x base damage. If you only cast T1 in the same cases you get: 18x and 40.5x. In the worst case scenario of 4 enemies, a T1 spell has higher base damage than FB. Compare that even more poorly to the 3x base damage of normal attacks, and its just laughable.

I'd give up 25% parry to do 20 times as much damage, or hell, even 5 times as much.

Arxdewn: Doesn't OFC have higher damage, overall, than Frenzies Blows? Why are you campaigning for FB then? You should instead ask that OFC be 0-CD (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Oh, and thirty turns is pure lies. Pack some Soul Stones/energy drinks for OC like mage packs mana pots, and spam FB every 11 turns XD. Or use Holy, spam paradise lost every 6 turns(at your level).

Exactly, people don't use it except to kill a schoolgirl or fsm, and even that is barely worth it.

Melee skills cant be avoided, but the normal hits that build up to them can be parried and evaded. At an average of 15 hits, that's 15x base damage, regardless of enemies. Using a T3's 7.5 multiplier, against 4 enemies that's 30x base damage. Against 9 enemies every roundin a grindfest, that's 67.5x base damage. If you only cast T1 in the same cases you get: 18x and 40.5x. In the worst case scenario of 4 enemies, a T1 spell has higher base damage than FB. Compare that even more poorly to the 3x base damage of normal attacks, and its just laughable.

I'd give up 25% parry to do 20 times as much damage, or hell, even 5 times as much.

50%+ Specific Mitigations are not uncommon (especially for Elemental). Also, for that 5x damage, we're going to be taking your mana pool. The only mage attack that uses negligible MP is T1 Elemental (and even that starts adding up pretty fast on schoolgirls given how much resist and HP they have even after Imperil).

Also, I'm pretty sure the multipliers for skills aren't correct in the wiki, but the spell multipliers are (verified from AP assignments and directly from Tenboro in some cases). I know I can hit for 4k with 3x PA on a mob (plus however much from strikes), and then Great Cleave for 37k (no stance or crit on either). That 4k is pretty close to my Base Damage, 37k certainly isn't close to Base Damage x 2.5, so I think they were changed when OC was removed as a factor in skill damage calculation. I don't have the DW prof to test FB, but I have good reason to suspect that each hit is more powerful than a simple no-strikes no-offhand DW hit.

This post has been edited by PK678353: Jul 29 2013, 14:01

100 more post to reach the 5k post on this thread... im starting to make the cake.

EDIT: i mean 89 posts.

This post has been edited by piyin: Jul 29 2013, 17:00

I got 15 chaos tokens and 2 blood tokens today.
Why is the distribution so biased. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Beware of what you wish for...

Do you believe it will come without massive chaos? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Well, this sort of difference isn't necessarily bad. But the problem I have with this sort of progression from elemental to holy(once you get strong enough/get holyperil/can eat the mp cost due econ5/aether/frugal/plain MP pool increase as you level)[And it is progression from elemental to holy, look at any phase auction] is that the APs and MPs are against this sort of progression: if anything, they support going from holy(little AP required) to elemental(much more AP required) - I honestly think the AP costs of elemental and holy should be reversed or something, but then again they don't exactly operate same way, given that elemental can mostly skimp on sorcery if they're tight, and holy on better imperil).

Maybe the original design of mage development is a way from element to holy/dark ( higher cost with higher damage of holy and rarer drop of Katalox showed) or at least two types of mage.
Before 0.76,things went on well.

However, the 0.76 added a totally reversed system -- new AP system. With more ap spent which is just actually a small mount of credits for 310+ player, element mages can overcome holy/dark ones with less mana cost and equal damage output.
So the balance is broken.

I agree with your piont : reverse AP costs of elemental and holy. And make holy has higher cost and higher damage than element again with more AP spent. It will define Holy/dark mages as damage-output mages and Element ones as mana-conservation ones.


By the way, auction can not always tell the turth. At least there were another two factors which made element phase cheaper than holy/dark:
First, less competitors. there are four type phase for element but two type for holy/dark.
Second, lack of mass base. there are a lot holy/dark rich holy/dark mage are willing to pay for holy/dark phase(those who don't want to switch to element).

AND, why you FORGET DARK MAGES? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cry.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/anime_cry.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cry.gif)

This post has been edited by gc00018: Jul 29 2013, 18:30

I got 15 chaos tokens and 2 blood tokens today.
Why is the distribution so biased. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I must be backwards, because I get way more Tokens of Blood than Chaos Tokens (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I must be backwards, because I get way more Tokens of Blood than Chaos Tokens (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

my ratio is 2:1... 2 TOB per 1CT... i like it.

gc: Haha, I didn't mention dark because a) dark has less benefits but better resistance profile, and (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) most of these things apply to both holy and dark, so typing holy/dark every time would be redundant.

Regarding auctions 2-to-1 ratio doesn't really matter all that much in the rates of equipment drops multipliers, especially when one is 'supposed' to be more popular. Highest price I've seen on element phase before was 3 mil, now 1.65 mil - granted, 'before' is a longer period, but there seems to have been notable general drop. Meanwhile mag holy can go for 12.5m and leg for 18m.

Also, unless you meant taking advantage of the market with forging, holy/dark has significantly better damage output both due much better staff options and due lot better resist profile. (there's also the thing that elemental damage multipliers doesn't catch up until 460 or so, which is another, up to 12,5% damage depending on level). Sure, imperil all-together favors elemental mages - but not enough to turn it around even without holy/dark imperil, given that you don't imperil everything even on iwbth. These first factor means that a legendary redwood loses to ex katalox in edb-heavy builds given equal mobs. The second factor, well....It's better than pre-0.76, but it's still looking at ≃ 15%(more than the difference between sup and mag) loss of damage in general and huge chunk of strong mobs having a weakness either to holy or dark and not so with most of the elements, making high difficulties much harder.

As for overcoming these hurts with forging...It is sort of possible in a sense - 12 times forged elemental phase is cheaper than holy phase of similar quality, and though getting back from ex-mag gap and the resistance gap for staffs requires forging staffs nearly to the limit for nor-MDB(~ 160 HGW+45 bindings for EDB, more for MDB), it is still cheaper than buying legendary katalox. But by then it has nearly hit ceiling - if holydark does just 15 forges on everything, it is already nearly equal to forged to the max elemental set, without accounting for chaosing pattern benefits or healing benefits or ripened soul/drain benefit. Given that, element mages can't overcome holy in the most important aspect for mage - killing power. Also, I've heard whispers that with the new+old ET mp is actually better for holy in marathons than before....

Before 0.76, things were even worse for elemental, speaking as fire turned dark - staff difference wasn't so huge, especially if you had ebony legacy, but resist profile was so ridiculously worse their small price was more than deserved. At least now they may or may not have a rather-useless niche(since killspeed is far more important than mana costs).

This post has been edited by Lement: Jul 29 2013, 20:04

my ratio is 2:1... 2 TOB per 1CT... i like it.

I'd rather have 2 CT per 1 ToB (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I got 15 chaos tokens and 2 blood tokens today.
Why is the distribution so biased. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I'd like to trade places with you if it's even possible. I want more chaos tokens!

Maybe there should be a Token exchange like with Hath and with GP. If that were the case, what would the price be for each? I don't think you should be able to sell them like items or equipment, but if you could auction them on the exchange that would be an interesting concept.

but if you could auction them on the exchange that would be a huge incentive to make dupe accounts

Fixed.