[X] My Assistant

(IMG:[i.qkme.me] http://i.qkme.me/3po3rq.jpg)
Both of you, before it becomes ugly. We got the argument... I guess

Joe, just wanna point out that people who uses gossamer/prof staff like me loses a lot of damage in the process. The prof rewards aren't even close in bridging the gap. At best you gain 2x pure damage (75% specific mitigation reduced to 50%). But to get that 2x, you lose a lot of consistent damage that MDB/EDB brings, so on average, you lose out on damage, by a large factor.

In addition, when maxed, each attribute in the forge is now ~90% of what it used to be. I think that's the correct number, but I'll verify again with chippy.

Furthermore, the lost of 2x damage on main target is significant. At worst, you lose 50% damage (vs 1 target). At best, you lose 10% damage (10 mobs, counting x2 hit as 11th mob). It's not insignificant.

Finally, you're now forced to use weaker spells for the majority of the time. This also greatly reduces damage.

I'd imagine that if Tenboro were to remove the restrictions on each tier (range, cooldown), there would actually be MORE strategy involved in the maging process. Certainly, it seems 2x damage is unlikely to make a return, so a lot of the strategy is lost there.

But with all restrictions removed on the 3 tiers, either via the ability tree or removed completely and the abilities focused on damage/cast speed/mana cost, it'll be much better than the current situation. People would opt for t3 to wipe out some mobs, then use T2/T1 to clean up for mana efficiency, instead of just cycling spells as they become available like currently.

I didn't disagree, I just believe there's no point in bitching about it. You had a time where little investment could pay off quite well, now you have to maintain it.

+ to Grinding then.

As long as you keep assuming that whatever is happening for you must be happening to everyone else then I will do the same. We can be stubborn together.

Except I'm not the only one complaining about lost damage from maging. While you, on the other hand, seem to be playing your own version of HV where you suddenly gained boosted damage and free happy pills/crystals/exp/materials.

Doubtful. I just changed my rotation and invested in all my active abilities. Besides the range nerf my damage is doing great.

Did you have to do spell rotation before? According to you, more repetitive actions = more grind.
Having this spell rotation forced on us without adding any strategic value is stupid.

Huh? The change prevents grinding so I have no idea how you even reached that conclusion.

It doesn't prevent grinding. It just lowers the rewards so you're forced to grind more for the old result, or force you to play a higher difficulty.

If he REALLY wanted to prevent grinding, he would have placed a limit of 1000 rounds per day on GF.

1) Monsters stay "alive" at 0 morale.
2) Monsters have no major impact on your gains besides materials.
3) Material prices have dropped hard.

So what? You have to grind now, instead of not having to grind.
Grinding required last patch = zero
Grinding required this patch = a lot

How you can say that Tenboro managed to "reduce grinding" with this patch is beyond me.

Ahahaha, who thinks that?

People who found your ass-kissing behavior a bit too annoying, I guess.

Yep; if it isn't then you can complain all day long with my blessing.

"Working as intended, except when Tenboro decides to change something, he suddenly calls it a bug and blames people for not noticing".

"Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games."

What you are referring to is more on the line of "efficiency".

Which is the same thing. If you previously needed X time to do something and this patch made it so you need 2X, you would need to grind more to achieve the same result.

I didn't imply a reduction in grinding, just a lack of an increase. Outside of the monster lab we traded some grinding for others.

So here we go. Tenboro failed spectacularly with this patch if his goal was to reduce grinding.

And not only with this patch. Nearly every change before this promoted more grinding. Remember when all the RoB monsters got doubled HP? There was no point to that except forcing people to spend more time grinding doing Schoolgirl Arena.

Happy pills... I got 2 once in consecutive turns and that's all, never saw another.
I hope my monsters won't explode from overeating crystals, damn them and their puppy eyes!

[11:43] <~tenboro> I don't think mage in general needs much of a buff, the love-starved ones are 1h and dw

[11:43] <~tenboro> I don't think mage in general needs much of a buff, the love-starved ones are 1h and dw

WRONG.

The lovestarved ones are Unarmed and Naked.

PLEASE TELL HIM THAT, SKILLCHIPPU.

3) Material prices have dropped hard.

Except for b. of slaughter. With the current high bid, it's almost possible to buy 1 binding of everything else together. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[11:43] <~tenboro> I don't think mage in general needs much of a buff, the love-starved ones are 1h and dw

Love for DW (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

Finally the Fourth skill (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Edit: Just whined and got one happy pill in the hourlies (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by Ebisan: Jun 2 2013, 03:35

[11:43] <~tenboro> I don't think mage in general needs much of a buff, the love-starved ones are 1h and dw

Please! The removal of the damage buff for OC really did a number on my kill speed.

I would love a DW buff. 2H is just so much faster even though my 2H stuff is miles below my DW stuff.

Did you have to do spell rotation before?

Holy and Dark AoE spam. Same as now.

According to you, more repetitive actions = more grind.

You're forced to make choices and not use the same 2 spells over and over. Sounds less repetitive to me. Could use some more combo-like mechanics but I'm sure that will come in due time.

Having this spell rotation forced on us without adding any strategic value is stupid.

So we should go back to (Alt)+1, #, R,R,#,R,R,#...? Because that right there was "strategy" before.

If he REALLY wanted to prevent grinding, he would have placed a limit of 1000 rounds per day on GF.

Isn't that... worse?

Grinding required last patch = zero

Not constant, but you did (and still do) need initial Chaos Tokens which is a touch grindy.

How you can say that Tenboro managed to "reduce grinding"

Well I didn't, I merely stated that is his intention (which I should clarify is a long-term goal).

People who found your ass-kissing behavior a bit too annoying, I guess.

Awww, I wanted names. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

"Working as intended, except when Tenboro decides to change something

Well it is his game.

Remember when all the RoB monsters got doubled HP?

Remember when it took literally several hours to kill FSM by perma-stunning it? Every change that affects efficiency has some tradeoff. Increasing the time needed to achieve/get something increases its value (e.g. Noodly Appendage's price went up when FSM got harder) so there are gains for those that put it the time needed.

I know what you thought. You thought it's an easy way to get further into the game. Yay, I'll just spam pots like in Diablo. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

You make it sound like potions you actually can use drop on a frequent enough basis for this to be easy. I would argue that the additional chunk of item drop roll now being occupied by fucking monster food makes this unlikely. I would argue that Diablo felt far more balanced and realistic than the stupidity in "whisking" away loot you win in this game.

A better alternative involves scrapping the packrat, etc trainings and tie consumable storage to Equipment features as well as allowing restock from loot drops. To balance, you could have stuffing the equipment full of potions create burden, reduce speed/agility, etc. Perhaps also favor type where cloth > leather > heavy at carrying more potions without penalty.

Further, I would argue that a better way to balance and prevent endless runs is to restrict the amount of Equipment from loot drops you can carry out of a battle sequence, else it starts to contribute heavily to burden and interference. That's how traditional tabletop RPGs most other games work, you usually have to dump stuff you don't need.

As for the 1000 slots, I just assumed that was storage wherever you happened to live.

[11:43] <~tenboro> I don't think mage in general needs much of a buff, the love-starved ones are 1h and dw

YES! More love for DW (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Awww, I wanted names. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Chalk me up as one of 'em, Joe. I was kinda ok with your posts when you had that cute kid as your avatar. Now? Just pisses me off. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

But the Tenshi is right. This patch requires a craptonne more grinding than previous patches.

And mana acts like that for mages, and yet mages got cooldowns on their attacks.

... Wait I just got a better idea. Make Melee normal attacks use Overcharge! Something like 10 OC per attack would be about right. And then make Defend/Focus replenish OC instead.
Make HP pots replenish OC in addition to HP. There, HP pots are suddenly useful again.

I don't mind cooldowns like this and on pots if the current battle item system/trainings gets scrapped, item slot quantity is a factor of equipment alone, and we can restock from drops.

You make it sound like potions you actually can use drop on a frequent enough basis for this to be easy.

Dude, potions drop almost every round for me. Of course you could spam them if item slots were refillable. Maybe your scavenger isn't high enough or something... Potion drop-rate would definitely have to be adjusted to make this not break the game.

This post has been edited by T_Starrk: Jun 2 2013, 04:56

Holy and Dark AoE spam. Same as now.

People used Holy/Dark combo? That was subpar then.

No wonder you weren't angry this patch. You were already used to wading in shit that you're happy that people are now forced to be in the same pool of shit as you. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

You're forced to make choices and not use the same 2 spells over and over. Sounds less repetitive to me.
Could use some more combo-like mechanics but I'm sure that will come in due time.
So we should go back to (Alt)+1, #, R,R,#,R,R,#...? Because that right there was "strategy" before.

Forced being the keyword here. Less repetitive? Are you kidding me? Being forced to switch using different spells is MUCH MORE TEDIOUS.

Again, no wonder you like this patch so much. Most decent mages would spam only their best spells and weren't forced to use your sub-par rotation method.
You didn't get any stronger. Every other mage just got weaker.

Other mages: "Man, we have to eat shit now?"
Joe: "I've been eating shit all this time, and I loved it"

A pity you weren't able to experience what the other mages were dining on last patch.

Isn't that... worse?

No. Combine that with an increased reward for doing the 1000 round GF a day, and it would not only reduce grinding, but also satisfy the people looking for better tier equips and stuff.

Not constant, but you did (and still do) need initial Chaos Tokens which is a touch grindy.

Required grinding? I didn't see it last patch. I could stop playing for a month and check my monsters for gifts every other day, and nothing would have changed.

And a good thing you agreed that getting Chaos tokens last patch was a "touch grindy". How will you describe it now that you actually need double the Chaos Tokens to make monsters?

Well I didn't, I merely stated that is his intention (which I should clarify is a long-term goal).

Well, you challenged my claim that he failed to reduce grinding with a "....How?" so that implies you were against my claim.

Awww, I wanted names. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Sorry, no names. But there are quite a bit of them. Or us, if we're counting the number of people who were getting annoyed at your Tenboro-spokesman persona.

Well it is his game.

Sure. It just gets annoying when he blames the players for not noticing said "bugs".

Every change that affects efficiency has some tradeoff. Increasing the time needed to achieve/get something increases its value

I keep saying this: he needs to stop looking at numbers because it doesn't give the whole picture on the HV situation. Nearly every other player in here is saying that this game gets less and less fun per patch, and this patch is the straw that broke the camel's back, at least for me and bunch of others. I bet Tenboro won't even be able to stand playing his own game for an hour if he actually tried testing the changes he did.

@Rei-Tenshi: While you're winning on pretty much every point, prof formula change is truly unknown so we can't even say if it became faster to grind 0-90% prof now, which is the only time you're grinding prof really. Oh and adaptive just means time to shift to higher difficulty.

Which is easy to do for you. Meanwhile, despite having assigned more stat points to my Agility, having both accuracy and attack speed well above 100%, you still get accosted by these ridiculous mobs created by the hath/crystal-shitters and catgirls that fucking parry/evade 8 times in a row. I can't play at higher difficulty because fucking HTTP/308 mobs always show up and shit all over the place. There's nothing I can do because would be nice if Slow would actually, you know, lower EVADE/RESIST/PARRY because you know, their movements are slow as fuck. Yet you cast Slow on a hath/crystal-shitter's monster == 8 parries/evades in a row.

FUCK ADAPTIVE DROP RATE. It means more grinding, not less.

Also Rei is absolutely correct about grinding for proficiency. I lost EVERY single one of my T2/T3 spells because I did not spam (grind) them enough in .75. Meanwhile, the situation has improved a little since the first week (when spell prof was serious borked), but with cool-downs and useless T1 deprecating, I doubt I'll be seeing Imperil anytime soon.

Drain is a fucking joke, too. With the cool-down so high, the resistance, and SPDrain/MPDrain lasting 1 turn, it is impossible to use in a productive manner. Get rid of this nonsense and bring back the old Ripened Soul proc. 24-32 sp gained after going through all that nonsense to get it to work? I want my fucking 2 Mastery Points back.

People used Holy/Dark combo? That was subpar then.

Compared to what? 1-EDB stacking? I did pure dark and it was slower (and fucking terrible against some mobs). I'd love to hear how any elemental mage handled schoolgirl marathons.

A pity you weren't able to experience what the other mages were dining on last patch.

A pity you don't know my stats.

Combine that with an increased reward for doing the 1000 round GF a day

...and then they make multiple accounts once more.

I could stop playing for a month and check my monsters for gifts every other day, and nothing would have changed.

You keep coming back to this so I'll keep pointing out: materials are significantly cheaper than ever.

How will you describe it now that you actually need double

I'd point out that this isn't true for everyone, it scales harsher but "double" is misleading. My cost went from 10 to 15.

Nearly every other player in here is saying that this game gets less and less fun per patch

You misspelled "easy".

I bet Tenboro won't even be able to stand playing his own game for an hour if he actually tried testing the changes he did.

Considering that's precisely how he tests things before patching them in I'd say no.

I agree with Tenshi with most of what he said, including the ass-kissing but that's another topic.

Elemental mages, got buffed. Holy/dark mages got nerfed,
unless not maxing staff prof(20) and having only 100 cloth prof really matters that much.

To be honest, I have around 320ms and a semi decent set, but surprisingly 2H with kevlar shade and power sets are faster than me maging. (the profs for those are even worse than mage seeing that they started out near 0 ). How can you justify that?

People used Holy/Dark combo? That was subpar then.

No wonder you weren't angry this patch. You were already used to wading in shit that you're happy that people are now forced to be in the same pool of shit as you. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)



Forced being the keyword here. Less repetitive? Are you kidding me? Being forced to switch using different spells is MUCH MORE TEDIOUS.

Again, no wonder you like this patch so much. Most decent mages would spam only their best spells and weren't forced to use your sub-par rotation method.
You didn't get any stronger. Every other mage just got weaker.

Other mages: "Man, we have to eat shit now?"
Joe: "I've been eating shit all this time, and I loved it"

A pity you weren't able to experience what the other mages were dining on last patch.
No. Combine that with an increased reward for doing the 1000 round GF a day, and it would not only reduce grinding, but also satisfy the people looking for better tier equips and stuff.
Required grinding? I didn't see it last patch. I could stop playing for a month and check my monsters for gifts every other day, and nothing would have changed.

And a good thing you agreed that getting Chaos tokens last patch was a "touch grindy". How will you describe it now that you actually need double the Chaos Tokens to make monsters?
Well, you challenged my claim that he failed to reduce grinding with a "....How?" so that implies you were against my claim.
Sorry, no names. But there are quite a bit of them. Or us, if we're counting the number of people who were getting annoyed at your Tenboro-spokesman persona.
Sure. It just gets annoying when he blames the players for not noticing said "bugs".
I keep saying this: he needs to stop looking at numbers because it doesn't give the whole picture on the HV situation. Nearly every other player in here is saying that this game gets less and less fun per patch, and this patch is the straw that broke the camel's back, at least for me and bunch of others. I bet Tenboro won't even be able to stand playing his own game for an hour if he actually tried testing the changes he did.

You have to realize that this site is not about HV but the gallery, and HV is not about fun but the gallery. We do have a fun time, but what meant to be fun to us may not be how HV intended to be. It is tough but sometimes you have to let go.