[X] My Assistant

Those games also pay the people who make them. And have people as in plural.

I'm torn between the fact that you have a very good point from a game design perspective, yet it's not really fair from a practical one. I appreciate that these things can be compared from a game design perspective, so I'm not saying it's not a valid thing to do in that context. If you're going to say how good a game is, that's basically what you've gotta do. A minigame on a site run by one man who has a day job can't be expected to have the resources to put into that kind of development, though. The conceptual development itself isn't so easy, much less structuring and then executing the implementation.

Basically, I've always been comfortable with the notion that I'm kicking around inside somebody's spare-time project.

But he does have the time/resources to do it. This huge patch is proof of that. It's just annoying that he devoted his efforts on making the game more grindy and less fun, instead of the opposite. He should try playing his own game and see if it's still fun, instead of looking at logs and stuff. If he actually tried to play mage for a few minutes after patch release, he would have found out that they were shit, instead of having to wait for this happen:

<~tenboro> because I just finished revising my log analyzing tool to work with the new battle log, aand.. it would seem that mages kinda got screwed

And I can argue that this site is already paying for itself, and a good chunk of that is from people who donated because of HV. Yes, HV. I'm willing to bet that a lot of people donated for the donor perks and not just to "help the site". Hell, I remember from a few years back a not-yet-Catgirl who was so desperate to donate for the perks that he basically opened a new account on an online payment site just to do so. Which gets me wondering if Tenboro will see a decrease in donors because of the amount of hate in this patch lol.

So yes, people invested time and money in this game, and it's sad that this game suddenly turned to shit.

Is it at all possible to make it so that we can increase the range on spells like silence a bit more due to the long cooldowns? I mean, even another tier or two or even three for those spells. I mean, I don't necessarily expect it to be as big of a range as maxed two-handed range, but 1 in each direction seems a tad small.

Rei-Tenshi: if you want AoE every turn your best option is probably to use melee. And for tenboro's perspective it is "This system is great!" when he adds it and "They broke the damn game again" few months later. For example, he lacked good considerations for forged gear pre-patch.

I have quite a big problem with those MMO's - you're the top player - they add some equipment changes - now you're not and have to grind like a fuck for it, and probably will still lose the top player status for a bit. And it's even worse with classes, which may make your whole character obsolete. And then difficulty is raised to account for new stuff. Nerfs by addition are still nerfs - and at least in recent history tenboro has kept the armor prefix boosts not too overpowering.

You can also do multielemental rotation if you're high level(which you are) with some speed efficiency(though I note here that mage doesn't start hitting 5 targets with t1 until 150/100 for 6-target t2/175 for dark/holy, and 7 targets first appear on t3(not sure when that appears)/ at level 300 for t2, though explosion damage is down and worst element resistances were brought up significantly.

This post has been edited by Lement: May 24 2013, 08:16

But unlike some Korea Grinder this game has one guy to develop and test shit. I guess coding this all takes a lot of his free time.
Obviously he will work with existing stuff instead of creating new things.

So instead of whining all day why not make good suggestions which will work without weeks of coding.

This post has been edited by Ichy: May 24 2013, 08:17

Please return ability to regenerate SP from Ripened Soul. To my amazement it was removed and it sucks donkey balls if you are a mage.

Mage which need to load Spirit potions to recover SP is no mage at all. SP regeneration by hitting mobs with Ripened Soul was excellent idea, but 0.76 removed quite a few of those and replaced them with... air. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

As for cooldowns well I'm split on this factor. Some cooldowns just crippling game play: Absorb, Magnet while others [when maxed] are not that bad. Of course critical words in that sentence are 'when maxed' and compounded with the problem of limited Mastery Slots for offensive spells it put maging on a massive disadvantage when compared even to a naked* melee.

* - I don't mean literally naked just with equipped melee stuff but without any melee abilities enabled. Run a few tests and Void [average 2H/DW prof] NI is far superior to nowhere near maxed mage (except hourlies on IWBTH or fighting gods).

@ Rei-Tenshi

You are right. I was one of those who made donations based on quality of the patches. Unless there is something truly spectacularly good in store I'm done with donating. Honestly 0.76 fells like being constantly kicked in the guts and balls for a year. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

2. For those- including myself- who trained levels in Pack Rat BEFORE this patch and certain other trainings, money was lost, and in some cases lots of it.

Whatever, our great dictator may or may not sign off on any refunds, though the cut credit drop rates would make such a move incredibly helpful.

I don't really get the base for this complaint - just because it became cheaper doesn't mean you suddenly lost any credits. My next level for my loot drop drainings other than arch are million+ cheaper than pre-patch levels each, - but when I decided to train them they were something I thought to be worth it regardless.And it's not like trainings are tradeables either so you could have them as liquid assets.

But unlike some Korea Grinder this game has one guy to develop and test shit. I guess coding this all takes a lot of his free time.
Obviously he will work with existing stuff instead of creating new things.

So instead of whining all day why not make good suggestions which will work without weeks of coding.

I don't think its about the number, even diablo3 has shitty patches, more developer won't help if the most important concept is not identified --- Player defines what is fun, not the developer.

This post has been edited by wypower2: May 24 2013, 09:06

The monsters can only show six buff&debuff, when they have more it won't be seen. Can you fix it?

Rei-Tenshi: if you want AoE every turn your best option is probably to use melee.

I could, but like I said in a previous post, I still want to hear what advantages Tenboro intends for mages to have over melee. And I won't bother doing all that rotation crap. Like ChosenUno said, it doesn't add anything new to maging, just more tedious. I've basically quit this game, hence why I'm spending more time whining here. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

So instead of whining all day why not make good suggestions which will work without weeks of coding.

You missed my point. This patch did take weeks of coding, but in the wrong direction. He could have spent those weeks making the game more fun, instead of writing a new system that nerfs everybody.

And you want suggestions that add new content without weeks of coding? Here's one that could have worked for the old patch:
New Ability Trees at Level 350 / 400 / 450 / 500.
Tier 4 spells for Elemental/Holy and Tier 5 for Dark.
Regen III/IV/V
Arenas at Level 400 / 500.

He could have done any of those stuff, and it would have counted as new content. It would be something to strive for again for people at level 300 with nothing more to aim for. But nope, again, all we got was more nerfs and mandatory grinding for keeping monsters alive.

You missed my point. This patch did take weeks of coding, but in the wrong direction. He could have spent those weeks making the game more fun, instead of writing a new system that nerfs everybody.

The weeks of Codings where actually good used. The Ability System in itself looks good and so is the Monster System. Both needs a lot of more fine tuning but he is already doing it.

The only really bad choice was to fuck mages on so many instances at once. Damage and MP Cost was already addressed so I only have Cooldowns and little AoE left to hate. Both should be counteracted by high Prof if you ask me.

Yesterday my mp is like 1076 but now it shot up to 1138.

Now it is prosperous time!

Rei-Tenshi: To be honest I have hard time understanding what is "fun" other than "less tedious".

Though I note that HV is rather unusual in that good amount of people prefer mindless grinding to constant evaluations on what to do. Which has some strange interactions on my mind when combined with "not tedious".

As for the abilities....The new system takes some fine-tuning, but ignoring the offensive spells I like that spells become available more easily - though the spells in question are still affected by low duration/power/CD/etc. 2-turn confuse is, for example, not very useful.

Rei-Tenshi: To be honest I have hard time understanding what is "fun" other than "less tedious".

Though I note that HV is rather unusual in that good amount of people prefer mindless grinding to constant evaluations on what to do. Which has some strange interactions on my mind when combined with "not tedious".

Let's see. Part of what's fun for me is grinding in the hopes of getting a really good equip. It was still bearable last patch, blasting through IWBTH Arenas and Normal GF. Now you have to triple the effort, for half the reward. That and the constant nerfs patch after patch throughout the years of playing this game, it just got too much. Now, with all this rotation crap + cooldowns + target limits + global resists, I can't even enjoy mindlessly grinding after a day's work.

edit: Also credit nerfs. Yet again.

As for the abilities....The new system takes some fine-tuning, but ignoring the offensive spells I like that spells become available more easily - though the spells in question are still affected by low duration/power/CD/etc. 2-turn confuse is, for example, not very useful.

Still can't understand how people consider this better compared to the old one. Last patch, if you had the required level and APs, you got the full benefit of the spell. Now, you get like a half-assed version of it for free, but have to spend triple the AP just to make it work like the old one. It just feels like a lazy way of dealing with the excess amount of AP that people managed to accumulate throughout the years of playing.

This post has been edited by Rei-Tenshi: May 24 2013, 09:39

I don't really get the base for this complaint - just because it became cheaper doesn't mean you suddenly lost any credits.

We lost those additional pack rat' slots we trained before the patch. So we had to retrain em. Also we lost some credits by reason of reduction in trainin' price.

He could've just stayed with the old system, reset APs, lowered costs and training duration, and add new spell tiers. Much easier than this whole system of mastery and what not...

So I seem to be missing one of my tier 2 spells, Downburst. Cant find it anywhere.

I'm I just doing something incorrectly or is this a glitch of some sort?

@Rei-Tenshi

My opinion.

1. The new ability system is intended to give space for more variety in abilities for future patches. One of the problem for 'full benefit' is that you can't balance things based on player's level. Something that's okay for a lv.50 player can simply become too OP for a lv. 300 player. Now, you're getting a crippled version at lv.50, and a full version at lv. 300 when you get more APs to spend.

Also, there's only limited space in the old ability tree. At lv. 300+, everyone's having excessive AP while those at around lv.150 always struggle at AP.

I do hope in some future patches that there will be more abilities, so people who want to concentrate on one style can have better edge while those who spread out the abilities can be more flexible to different situations.

2. There's some problems with your 'new contents' as it's focused on 350+ players and probably takes much less time to write the code (except ability). It's not good enough as the patch's effect will then be limited to those 350+. Also, when the current system's finished balancing, new arenas can always be added for 350+ players.

Also, this patch's probably not nerfing everybody, as melees are still doing good enough after the patch. So it's better to say it's a patch to nerf mages, who has become way too fast and powerful before the patch, I'd say.

3. I'm neutral of cooldown. I think it needs to trim 1 more turn down before it can be truly useful, but I think cooldown isn't a bad idea as it gives limitation on mages' power.

Some other things I'd like to have adjusted
-> right now regen's a bit....odd. As the MP cost increase with level, sometimes it's becoming too effective in the sense that you don't need that much HP. I'd suggest giving players the ability to choose another level of regen they'd like to have, like the old regen 1/2.
-> Drain's really bad. The CD is bad, the add-on takes unnecessary mastery point and AP, and the recovery rate isn't attractive. Especially for that amount of CD. The Ether Theft/Spirit Theft is unnecessarily complex and hard to understand.

This post has been edited by varst: May 24 2013, 10:19

@Rei-Tenshi

My opinion.

1. The new ability system is intended to give space for more variety in abilities for future patches. One of the problem for 'full benefit' is that you can't balance things based on player's level. Something that's okay for a lv.50 player can simply become too OP for a lv. 300 player. Now, you're getting a crippled version at lv.50, and a full version at lv. 300 when you get more APs to spend.

Also, there's only limited space in the old ability tree. At lv. 300+, everyone's having excessive AP while those at around lv.150 always struggle at AP.

I do hope in some future patches that there will be more abilities, so people who want to concentrate on one style can have better edge while those who spread out the abilities can be more flexible to different situations.

2. There's some problems with your 'new contents' as it's focused on 350+ players and probably takes much less time to write the code (except ability). It's not good enough as the patch's effect will then be limited to those 350+. Also, when the current system's finished balancing, new arenas can always be added for 350+ players.

Also, this patch's probably not nerfing everybody, as melees are still doing good enough after the patch. So it's better to say it's a patch to nerf mages, who has become way too fast and powerful before the patch, I'd say.

3. I'm neutral of cooldown. I think it needs to trim 1 more turn down before it can be truly useful, but I think cooldown isn't a bad idea as it gives limitation on mages' power.

Some other things I'd like to have adjusted
-> right now regen's a bit....odd. As the MP cost increase with level, sometimes it's becoming too effective in the sense that you don't need that much HP. I'd suggest giving players the ability to choose another level of regen they'd like to have, like the old regen 1/2.
-> Drain's really bad. The CD is bad, the add-on takes unnecessary mastery point and AP, and the recovery rate isn't attractive. Especially for that amount of CD. The Ether Theft/Spirit Theft is unnecessarily complex and hard to understand.

SOME of the Mage are strong because they spend shitload amount of credit on there equipment, how is that something bad that you need to nerf it?

Rei-Tenshi:
[attachembed=25829]
Personally, I liked the ease of making stuff happen, to the point that I didn't use imperil on BT.
I don't think equipment drops were reduced though, were they?

However, I agree that I am left kind of wanting when it comes to the question where is the purpose of maging?
→Juggling cooldowns/debuffs/buffs casting time/aoe range/random resist in the middle of your playgroung screwing up distribution/mana pool requires far more effort than melee(being pretty much mostly buffs/random cure and gem/using spirit stance for buffs at times), mentally.This adds considerable real-time delay per turn.
→Turn-wise, the mage is worse too most of the time - both from testing with my own set and when comparing hallowed estoc versus holy t1 RRRRR on FSM with a guy 30 levels lower(He went about 15% slower in turns).
→Offensively, even t3 damage isn't that much better than stanced attack on PA'd monster - and on that thought, both can use imperil, and PA is easier and much cheaper to proc on all targets than imperil is.
→Defensively, well. Melee is plainly superior.
→When it comes to mana or SP consumption, again melee is just plain superior - though that changes if melee tries to do something beyond their means such as using full set of crappy slaughter gear requiring them to cure every 2 turns.
So for places we can battle:
RoB→Every style of melee wins. Even 1h, probably, due merciful blow and sleep. Can mage even go faster than 1h against FSM or a schoolgirl?
Normalfest/IW→Speed-wise, 2h melee wins, mage spells just can't hit all targets so they have to spend time in cooldown, while melee has no such limitation even if they don't have as good chance of oneshotting everything with just 7 range all the time as mage has with t3. Not to mention that if you're below 150, melee range is just equal or superior mage range all the time.
IWBTHfest/IW→Mage cannot even attempt IWBTHIW still. And both turns-wise and realtime wise and mental-wise, melee wins.
IWBTH Arenas→Both can attempt. But mage needs much heavier souping up to have success than melee who can just pick up superior-class gear, though the less number of targets in most rounds means that the range is not such a limiter and Imperil works better. Kind of like nerfed Niten here? General comparisons before apply.
Schoolgirls→After the FSM example, it should be obvious that melee is the way to go here.
Normal arenas-> With cycling and divided damage, mage might be able to muster sufficient AoE all the time once they're high enough level. This is nice I suppose.
And for niches outside battle:
AP/Master point costs→Mage loses this one, hands down.
Equipment required→Melee's starting point for gear is much lower.
Level requirement→While the resistances are less high, the range is less and cooldowns are higher. Plus Imperil is weaker as a damage booster.


Laboq: Pack rat going to 10 maybe and removal of abilities from tree maybe, but reduction in training prices doesn't reduce your credits - plus they're not somethings you can plan for. You know what I thought when I saw the lowered costs on loot drop trainings? It was "yay, cheaper trainings". Not "I lost credits". Because I had trained the trainings to the limit I thought appropriate - and when they're cheaper for next level, it doesn't mean that I lost them, training them was still a good decision that will pay off. I can however train now even more.

1. The new ability system is intended to give space for more variety in abilities for future patches. One of the problem for 'full benefit' is that you can't balance things based on player's level. Something that's okay for a lv.50 player can simply become too OP for a lv. 300 player. Now, you're getting a crippled version at lv.50, and a full version at lv. 300 when you get more APs to spend.

Also, there's only limited space in the old ability tree. At lv. 300+, everyone's having excessive AP while those at around lv.150 always struggle at AP.

The excess AP would have been easily fixed at lvl 300+ by adding multipliers costs for the new spells. Like spells at the 300 tree would cost 2 AP per rank, spells at 350 would cost 3 AP, etc.

2. There's some problems with your 'new contents' as it's focused on 350+ players and probably takes much less time to write the code (except ability). It's not good enough as the patch's effect will then be limited to those 350+. Also, when the current system's finished balancing, new arenas can always be added for 350+ players.

Nothing wrong with that. It's just logical progression. We didn't have all these fancy ability customization crap when we were starting, why is it so bad that these new guys have to go through the same thing we did? And considering how easy it is to get to 300 now, I don't see a problem with adding 350+ content. In fact, having nothing to look forward to after lvl 300 is a bigger problem for me.

Also, this patch's probably not nerfing everybody, as melees are still doing good enough after the patch. So it's better to say it's a patch to nerf mages, who has become way too fast and powerful before the patch, I'd say.

3. I'm neutral of cooldown. I think it needs to trim 1 more turn down before it can be truly useful, but I think cooldown isn't a bad idea as it gives limitation on mages' power.

Look at one of my previous posts about the different advantages of mage vs melee. There is no reason for mages to be nerfed when Melee can do 200 rounds of IBWTH IW in 10 mins. Mages are supposed to be fast, yet they still lose to Melee in speed.

And mages aren't born strong. You think any random lvl 200 mage can oneshot IWBTH? We grinded our asses off for this stuff. And yet, the moment people start accomplishing stuff in this game, Tenboro shits on their efforts with more nerfs.