[X] My Assistant

How does this relate to limiting monsters to a rotation of 13 types(and how does that discourage farming, exactly...?) or needing one to be maxed before going on to another one(lets not even mention the consequences of that for maging on any difficulty), or what is "making good use of the monsters without farming", I do not know. I wouldn't mind if you clarified, as you are not the only one who sees strawman here.

If you'd read the previous posts, you'd see the "rotation" is just an addendum to avoid people having their giant/only monster stable. To provide variety.

The "consequences for maging" is a pretty narrow-minded approach. All in all the root of the problem is having monsters with way-too-obnoxious upgrades. Resist should follow the same path of the chaos upgrades nerfed recently. In any case Da Boss already said that once the majority of the mosters was heavily chaosed up he would rebalance things out. My suggestion would just expedite things towards that end.

Lastly, that "making good use of the monsters without farming" isn't even something I've written. It's another mish-mash of words.

Here's what I said:

Hard limits, heavy investments in current monsters before being allowed to create new ones, limitations on multiple monsters of the same class would discourage farming, while letting people make good use of their monsters.

Which honestly means something else entirely, once you follow the punctuation.

The last part is an aside, not a consequence. It's something that could be in effect right now, and honestly should have been already. Making "good use of your monsters" is pretty straightforward: it means having them bring back materials for your personal use, not to stockpile stuff and bias the market prices.

@MSimm1: They shall be pre-buff phases. Enjoy your phase of the raccoon.

Not a big deal (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

My Phase cap of the Fox still suits me just fine (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

@MSimm1: They shall be pre-buff phases. Enjoy your phase of the raccoon.

Fair Phase Gloves of the Raccoon (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Fair Phase Gloves of the Raccoon (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Remember when Phase drops where mega rare and when one dropped it was shit like that? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Remember when Phase drops where mega rare and when one dropped it was shit like that? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Yup. Those were the days... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Yup. Those were the days... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Phase is still rare, at least on the drops I get (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

But I will have to admit it has gotten way better than it used to be (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Phase is still rare, at least on the drops I get (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

But I will have to admit it has gotten way better than it used to be (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I think it has got to be at least 10X more common then it used to be

Tenboro:
Fair enough - it is kinda iffy to talk about numbers that are subject to change anyway, though it is kinda given that one I assume this means that the total drop rate will be 10% food, 5% everything else for total of 15% drop rate in that chance?
(since 10% of 5% would mean IWBTH has 90% high quality food, and that doesn't seem likely).

Hohenheim:
I haven't talked with HTTP. But not me, nor Chosen, nor danixxx nor anybody else with crys3 seem to get enough materials for their personal use in a reasonable amount of time - Chosen is still buying phazons, and he has had crystarium 3 and grinded several hours per day since crystals had twice the value they have now. Not allowing them(or anyone else) to sell the materials and trade forged weapons would prevent selling materials and thus setting the price because almost nobody has enough materials.

The reason the material prices skyrocket is people not getting enough of them, and having money they're willing to pay, not them owning monster armies. Without armies the prices would be even higher.

And I would argue that wanting to see monsters with more meaningful names than fgr and I fear and ouzai series(and arguing that ouzai is not meaningful on top of it) is pretty narrow-sighted as well. Requesting monsters to be chaosed up as a condition for new ones and minimizing chaos value is just moving the goalposts.Though yes, mage revamp will mitigate high chaos values.

Can we talk about prof changes as well?

Can we talk about prof changes as well?

yup. Will it take 7 tier 3 spells to clear a round on normal?

yup. Will it take 7 tier 3 spells to clear a round on normal?

No. 501st will go down on the first one. But the 3 lootchip monsters next to her will take 5. So I think you're exaggerating. It'll be 6 T3s. 5 spells if you're willing to waste a Ragnarok.

The new EDB scaling factor will be -70 rather than 50. But hey, thanks to prof those spells will be cheaper than T1s! (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This post has been edited by PK678353: May 4 2013, 09:52

Hohenheim:
I haven't talked with HTTP. But not me, nor Chosen, nor danixxx nor anybody else with crys3 seem to get enough materials for their personal use in a reasonable amount of time - Chosen is still buying phazons, and he has had crystarium 3 and grinded several hours per day since crystals had twice the value they have now. Not allowing them(or anyone else) to sell the materials and trade forged weapons would prevent selling materials and thus setting the price because almost nobody has enough materials.

I see the problem here. Reading comprehension.

And I'm not sold on the "almost nobody has enough materials". ChosenUno, for example, maxed out his staff. That's several times more than enough materials. He's STILL buying phazons? Dear me, so the definition of enough materials is "to max out everything"? That in itself is plain nonsense.

The reason the material prices skyrocket is people not getting enough of them, and having money they're willing to pay, not them owning monster armies. Without armies the prices would be even higher.

This statement is wrong on so many levels, it's hard to choose where to start from. Having an army is a source of income, for one. Having a handful of people setting the prices on mats is lobbying, expecially when it comes to mats they're not even using themselves. Prices rise when demand rises and offer goes down, this means that to make prices higher they just have to put less of them on the market. And guess what? That's exactly what they're currently doing, I can say that from experience (being on the receiving end).

Without armies (and without the ISB) prices wouldn't be as high as they are now. 1 year ago they weren't.

You may be right about reading comprehension, as your posts come across to me rather nebulous. For one, I don't know what acronym ISB stands for.

I don't think that having an army==being able to set price on mats - for if the army didn't exist it wouldn't bring gifts, yet other people who owned monsters would still be able to sell their mats. If the army owners prices are too high, others can undercut them.

But more importantly, materials are bought in mostly wtb not wts - where how much someone is paying for a material has ≃nothing to do with how many monsters they have. I don't think preventing armies would increase the supply in those topics,especially as regular players without them will have less of a surplus of materials than army-owners. I agree that the price of materials in wtb is determined by few players, but I don't think that one having an army is pretext to set prices that way.

And yes, I'd argue having enough materials is having enough materials to max out at least the important stats on your set of equipment - for what the phazons would be needed for. IWing armor may be not held in high regard, but forging is a bit different.

Having a handful of people setting the prices on mats is lobbying, expecially when it comes to mats they're not even using themselves. Prices rise when demand rises and offer goes down, this means that to make prices higher they just have to put less of them on the market. And guess what? That's exactly what they're currently doing, I can say that from experience (being on the receiving end).

I guess I can say I'm on the receiving end too (ie, slaughter bindings are just too expensive for my daily credits income, and they're arguably the most impactful forge upgrade), but is that the right course of action?

I mean, assuming this (lobbying, people are keeping the mats they get and are buying them even if they don't currently have any use for said materials, selling only at very high prices) is happening, changes to armies could lead to the following:

• The armies stay -> people will keep the mats and the issue (lobbying) goes on
• Stricter monsters limit gets introduced, no more armies, players gets refunded -> they get back a truckload of credits in the form of crystals, which they can invest to keep buying the mats
• Stricter monsters limit gets introduced, no more armies, players get no refund -> less mats being generated, and with less mats one usually leans towards keeping them since they're rarer, the shortage it's still there

This is just what came across my mind upon reading that (about armies and mats shortage), I'm not claiming to have an answer or something...
The matter is quite tricky actually, it's not like we have anti-trust rules or the likes, and a huge part of HV is really reading the market and making the right moves to gain profit.
Personally speaking, I'm just hoping the stuff which is not part of my gear will get more attractive to people and prices will therefore lower so I can afford some forging lol.

But more importantly, materials are bought in mostly wtb not wts - where how much someone is paying for a material has ≃nothing to do with how many monsters they have. I don't think preventing armies would increase the supply in those topics,especially as regular players without them will have less of a surplus of materials than army-owners. I agree that the price of materials in wtb is determined by few players, but I don't think that one having an army is pretext to set prices that way.

I agree that having armies doesn't necessarily translate into lobbying, but at the same time it's safe to say that having a whole army of monsters effectively makes that job (setting prices) easier.
You (army owner) are steadily generating some of the most rare materials, and can have such an high income that obviously makes you able to pay more than others, even causing shortage of mats.
It basically puts you in a better position to do it (setting prices) if you so wish.

People are sort of 'counting' on the same armies they face, because each time they get squashed more materials are supposedly entering the market.
If that doesn't happen those armies will just get stronger and stronger, while that doesn't happen for the player because you get to a point where forging it's the next logical step .
(That, or saving tens of millions to get a legendary lol - this applies to armor only, as a fully forged mag weapon is usually much better than an unforged legendary)

Ultimately we all know the drill, the rich getting richer etc (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

You may be right about reading comprehension, as your posts come across to me rather nebulous. For one, I don't know what acronym ISB stands for.

Item Shop Bot.

I don't think that having an army==being able to set price on mats - for if the army didn't exist it wouldn't bring gifts, yet other people who owned monsters would still be able to sell their mats. If the army owners prices are too high, others can undercut them.

I'm afraid this part doesn't even make sense. Having an army is precisely what sets one apart from the rest, if you don't have one you can't stockpile stuff and the matter we're discussing wouldn't be there in the first place. Would there be other problems, of a different nature? Most certainly yes. Does it matter in this discussion? Not in the least.

But more importantly, materials are bought in mostly wtb not wts - where how much someone is paying for a material has ≃nothing to do with how many monsters they have. I don't think preventing armies would increase the supply in those topics,especially as regular players without them will have less of a surplus of materials than army-owners. I agree that the price of materials in wtb is determined by few players, but I don't think that one having an army is pretext to set prices that way.

The point is, the army is not a pretext. It's an actual tool. A tool that tilts "economy" in the desired direction. It's not even up to debate. Want some proof? Look at the prices of Binding of Distruction and Binding of Slaughter. Notice how they changed over the course of the last year, last months an last days.

Market revolves around WTB? They just have to not sell stuff to people who don't offer the price they want, it's that simple. Danixxx once posted a request on his WTB thread, offering a given price. Hito replied saying "I'll sell you all you require in block, at a higher price". The answer? "I'm not in a hurry, I'll wait for people to answer to my request". That's how things should always go when someone tries to shoehorn his price on you. But that's increasingly more difficult when there are more persons hogging the mats and fixing prices.

And yes, I'd argue having enough materials is having enough materials to max out at least the important stats on your set of equipment - for what the phazons would be needed for. IWing armor may be not held in high regard, but forging is a bit different.

And you'd be wrong. You're talking about people who want to max out every piece of gear they have, that's got nothing to do with "enough materials" to improve their gear and a lot to do with "every mat must be mine".

If having enough materials is not to be able to max out your gear, then what is enough?

I fail to comprehend that point (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I fail to comprehend that point (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I know. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

@wr4st3r:
Fair point, though that releases the mats to the market so it's obvious this can be only done for specific things. And while the income from monsters aren't insignificant, it takes quite a long time to pay off and h@h and just plain grinding and selling the ground crystals instead works too - I'm pretty certain that HTTP's fgr army still hasn't paid itself off. *sigh* And you're right about the solution.

@Hohenheim:
Not every piece of gear, but what they're using. But given a) the chinese/not forumgoers part of the playerbase who do not sell on wtb and (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) most players withholding at least certain quantity of materials for their own, if the material amounts average I'd expect the average amounts of mats decrease because the surplus from their own withholding decreases on average and the amount of average mats a wtb visitor has decreases too.

I understand that you're saying that if people who own armies and didn't sell their materials on market didn't own armies the material price would drop, but I'm arguing that in such case average supply would decrease over longer stretches of time.

@Hohenheim:
Not every piece of gear, but what they're using.

This explains a lot on why you're having a hard time understanding what I write.

I'm sorry, I'll read the rest at a later time. It's for the best.

Is there going to be a monster retire (salvage) option so we can get back the crystals and chaos tokens (including the chaos tokens for the slots)?

I'd like to reduce the number of witches to a more manageable amount.

It would be unfair to completely change how the Monster Lab works without providing this option.