[X] My Assistant

What's the point of being "devoted player" then?
Forging is the only way that a player could improve equip problem without luck.
Everyone will eventually get Mag/Legs, however Leg != useful, and useful Leg != useful Leg to the owner.

Note that I don't say being devoted is bad. I just say the development of a player isn't linear because of that salvaging requirement. Especially when the forging is included in the balancing consideration now.

As for the other two point...maybe you'll need to elaborate them.

Because forging is essentially a void.

You forge something and once you grow out of it, you pretty much lose all your mats.

So why would you embark on such an endeavor as forging when you're pretty much gonna lose?

It's way better to save up your mats or sell it to get that 1 item you know you won't be replacing like EVER.

I agree. That's why I'm trying to suggest some incentive so people would be more inclined to upgrade their equips than selling them, instead of saving up the mats, in order to produce a more 'continual' forge effort across levels.

This post has been edited by varst: Feb 28 2013, 15:41

I'm not asking for a refund. However, if one is not planned then players need to start moving the points from their primary attributes now. As you can only move them at a rate of about ten a day, and with around five to six weeks between updates, players really need to start moving them now to avoid excessive bawwing when the change is implemented.
For future reference note that if somebody is asking for something, it is usually prefaced by 'Can I/we have...'.

I was really just trying to be funny because it's ludicrous to assume that Tenboro would actually just let a huge portion of everyone's experience disappear.

If I got a clean slate, there would be only five primary stats, with today's dexterity and agility combined into one. This may very well happen, but it's a bit.. involved.

I have my doubts that he will do it anytime soon, anyway.

I was really just trying to be funny because it's ludicrous to assume that Tenboro would actually just let a huge portion of everyone's experience disappear.

He may turn it all into treats for the repair ponies.

It's funny how every time tenb answers a particular suggestion everyone starts to discuss the suggestion he answered and ignore the past topic.
E.g.
Masses:"Yeah heavy melee is too nerfed, we really need upgrades..."
One person:"Oh hey you should increase drop chance"
Tenb: "Drop chance? nah"
Masses:"Yeah that wouldn't be worthy it, but seriously we have to change the way forge works..."

He may turn it all into treats for the repair ponies.

And risk being lynched? I don't even want to imagine what would happen if Eila lost her agility stat/that many power levels.

It's funny how every time tenb answers a particular suggestion everyone starts to discuss the suggestion he answered and ignore the past topic.
E.g.
Masses:"Yeah heavy melee is too nerfed, we really need upgrades..."
One person:"Oh hey you should increase drop chance"
Tenb: "Drop chance? nah"
Masses:"Yeah that wouldn't be worthy it, but seriously we have to change the way forge works..."

My mother taught me that "no" means no.

This post has been edited by Mindflayer88: Feb 28 2013, 15:55

Dude, you have misunderstood me. It's good to encourage people to give their crystals to monsters, so to get more forging materials. Or to pay for that.
What is bad now is that the system's unfavorable when you have some ex/mag equips. Instead of spending the mats on decent (but not excellent) equips, players tend to sell them so they can save money to buy the truly excellent equips. So there's a gap between 'unforged decent equip' and 'forged excellent equip'.

You are correct. Hence I could forge on some Cloth, or so. But having Shade armor since it was introduced, I do still need something extra (Shade fragment). Monsters can bring it as gift, granted. But buying it, then forging it on a really below decent Shade piece is not what would think about. Getting Agile Shade, then forge it. Forging a Fine Ethereal Mace of Slaughter? Nope. Not even considering about it.

The crystals are going to my monsters. Still I am a casual player (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) so monsters are low and few. I try to get my highest to at least 250 to be able to roll HG mats, just to put them aside for having them, when I should need them.

The point is: You have few monsters, you get few gifts. You have low monsters, you have low/mid ranged gifts. So the strategy is to build up at least -1- monster to above 250, then wait for gifts, otherwise you have to pay real much. I don't even know, if I would forge that much, when i always have to add a Shade fragment for a rise of 1% base... so its 100 Shade fragment to boost -1- stat to 100% to double it. Not to mention to upgrade the forge by itself. I am not complaining. Its just not economical in my eyes.

If there was leather, you can forge from literally crap to decent (with lower cost and lower gain in Forge XP) I could see myself stitching *ahm* forging. But just looking at the maths keeps me afraid:

- Monsters are trained exponentially. I shake when I read 13,758,211,177,349,400 Crystals to maximize PL. Maybe just feed it with any Crystals I have (which is what I do). Results: You have an awfully trained monster, it is not truly following any idea, its just...some level. I have the highest respect for monster owners who actually did train their monsters properly (and some got whacked for that with this patch).

- Chaos tokens drop rarely (for me). But using them to upgrade even a crap monster (with double gift and such) seems more reliable than to create another one.

- Gifts do appear by chance (ok, even by kill, but with awfully weak monsters, you don't bet at that) So I am always short on mats.

Where is the sweet spot between number of monsters : level of highest monster to gain sufficient mats to forge? I am sure, I am far away from it.

Note that I don't say being devoted is bad. I just say the development of a player isn't linear because of that salvaging requirement. Especially when the forging is included in the balancing consideration now.

As for the other two point...maybe you'll need to elaborate them.

A devoted player should be supposed to able to have better equip.
Solution:
1. Better loot: impractical;
2. Buy better loot: difficult; he'll eventually found nothing better can be bought;
3. Forging: given that devoted players are fewer, it's practical to purchase some mats.
(and eventually invested mats will cost much more than the equip itself)

And your suggestion preserves luck(loot) forever, but not for efforts(invested mats).
The unlucky player runs into a equip revamp with so-so equips:
1. Convert: get unforged new so-so equips, lost forge level and all mats;
2. Get luck and find a better equip: lost all mats.
Always big loss (of efforts) if he want to abandon old equip.

If instead he can recycle a lot of mats, it would be better.

This post has been edited by HTTP/308: Feb 28 2013, 16:08

And your suggestion preserves luck(loot) forever, but not for efforts(invested mats).
The unlucky player runs into a equip revamp with so-so equips:
1. Convert: get unforged new so-so equips, lost forge level and all mats;
2. Get luck and find a better equip: lost all mats.
Always big loss (of efforts) if he want to abandon old equip.

If instead he can recycle a lot of mats, it would be better.

I'm not sure why you would think the invested mats are gone in my suggestion: currently you lost at lest 25% of the bindings and all of your base materials. My suggestion will retain more bindings and mats on the new equip. Unless you're aiming for a 100% return rate for salvaging, which very probably won't happen.

I'm suggesting a way to recycle the mats (to apply on the new equip) when someone wants to abandon old equip. Exactly what you want.

This post has been edited by varst: Feb 28 2013, 16:57

This sounds more convincing as you can keep the previous effort with some (but not substantial) loss. It's a better system recycling forged equips, since players can actually see and calculate what they should do with old vs new equips, instead of salvaging, losing all the base materials while still fearing they don't get much back. Yea, calculation. The main point here.

I was playing with a system that where the return is increased with forge level up to a high number (say 80%) of bindings and materials returned upon salvaging, but at the same time remove the forge EXP for the actual returned components.

I was playing with a system that where the return is increased with forge level up to a high number (say 80%) of bindings and materials returned upon salvaging, but at the same time remove the forge EXP for the actual returned components.

So basically you make leveling up the forge even more tedious than it already is (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

If only I can just kinda shrine the mats for forge exp (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I was playing with a system that where the return is increased with forge level up to a high number (say 80%) of bindings and materials returned upon salvaging, but at the same time remove the forge EXP for the actual returned components.

solution: "refurbished" materials

"refurbished high-grade metals"

forging uses refurbished stuff first unless specified

So basically you make leveling up the forge even more tedious than it already is (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Ooor, it would mean that you could actually reassign your materials without losing much, and you get all the materials back for reuse so you don't lose any EXP in real terms.

Is it really too much to ask that you think a little before posting? The whole reason materials are (mostly) lost on salvage is so people can't just constantly recycle materials into new items to level the forge.

Is it really too much to ask that you think a little before posting? The whole reason materials are (mostly) lost on salvage is so people can't just constantly recycle materials into new items to level the forge.

See suggestions thread. It kind of is.


re: refurbished mats: have them mailable and sellable to the bazaar at a discount (25 to 50%)

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Feb 28 2013, 17:25

solution: "refurbished" materials

The idea isn't bad, but I don't really want to make 50 additional, mostly functionally equivalent items to support it..

The idea isn't bad, but I don't really want to make 50 additional, mostly functionally equivalent items to support it..

How difficult is it to add an item? Don't tell me you have to actually make really long item prototypes instead of just feeding from a list and attributes. PS. you don't have to remake the bindings so it's more like 17. (16 if shield runes are shitcanned)

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Feb 28 2013, 17:27

How difficult is it to add an item? Don't tell me you have to actually make really long item prototypes instead of just feeding from a list and attributes.

Na, it's a simple array, but it's still 50 entries in that array and 50 potential inventory item entries per player. (There's a reason most games limit the number of inventory slots.)

Na, it's a simple array, but it's still 50 entries in that array and 50 potential inventory item entries per player. (There's a reason most games limit the number of inventory slots.)

Like I said, bindings don't count towards forge EXP so you don't have to remake those. That should cut your workload down by a lot! Unless there are hidden or dummy items used in-engine you're not telling us about.

If I buy an Apple machine with a 3 GHz processor, I don't complain when they release a 3.5 GHz model. I complain when they send out a mandatory firmware update that effectively reduces my existing CPU to 2.5 GHz.

That's more like something Intel would do.

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Feb 28 2013, 17:35

I sincerely hope you never acquire any Apple products.

This is even worse than that WoW analogy.

If I buy an Apple machine with a 3 GHz processor, I don't complain when they release a 3.5 GHz model. I complain when they send out a mandatory firmware update that effectively reduces my existing CPU to 2.5 GHz.

Like I said, bindings don't count towards forge EXP so you don't have to remake those. That should cut your workload down by a lot! Unless there are hidden or dummy items used in-engine you're not telling us about.

Hmm. Good point, it would just be the actual "grade" materials, wouldn't it...

If I buy an Apple machine with a 3 GHz processor, I don't complain when they release a 3.5 GHz model. I complain when they send out a mandatory firmware update that effectively reduces my existing CPU to 2.5 GHz.

Well, first of all, they do do that. Not a mandatory one, but each iOS release is designed for the next-level hardware, and tend to make older models feel more sluggish.

Secondly, your analogy fails flat, since making slightly better equipment available doesn't actually make existing equipment worse.

Hmm. Good point, it would just be the actual "grade" materials, wouldn't it...

And refurbished versions of "rare" materials as well. You could even make jokes about their reliability in the description!