[X] My Assistant

Shade has:

1. Attack Damage Bonus
2. ZERO Burden
3. Much, much lower Interference (in the case of Arcanist, practically nil)
4. Evade and Resist
5. Physical Crit if Shadowdancer
6. Physical Accuracy bonus

And in the future (once people start getting agile shade from shrine and mob) shade is going to have attack speed bonus....

But Uno's pointed out that you can assemble a Kevlar set that's really, really close to Plate set - for a fraction the B/I.

and for 10x the cost, I suppose

This post has been edited by holy_demon: Feb 27 2013, 09:53

@kserox: Those look like my numbers, and I'm using Heavy.

I'm playing on Hell/Nintendo, not on IWBTH.

and for 10x the cost, I suppose

Ah, that I don't know. At his level, I doubt he even blinks at the cost.

I'm playing on Hell/Nintendo, not on IWBTH.

Well, OK, that's different.

It does work, I just wore two pieces of the new shielding armor with my estoc/heavy set and look:

7 5 You block the attack from Kazane Hiyori.

14 6 You block the attack from Eila Ilmatar Juutilainen 501st.
14 5 You block the attack from Kanoe Yuuko.

It's safe to say that if TenB leaves it as is then Legendary Shielding Plate of Protection is by far the best (or does shielding come on power armor too? Still haven't seen one yet (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) ).

oh, when did Tenb changed it? (the 'when using shield' part)

oh, when did Tenb changed it? (the 'when using shield' part)

ninja patched (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

(he removed it from the patch note as well)

This post has been edited by holy_demon: Feb 27 2013, 10:18

Shade has:

1. Attack Damage Bonus
2. ZERO Burden
3. Much, much lower Interference (in the case of Arcanist, practically nil)
4. Evade and Resist
5. Physical Crit if Shadowdancer
6. Physical Accuracy bonus

None of which Plate armour has. None.

And looking at the wiki rolls, non-Protection Plate compared to Shade has only ~2x the base PMI at Legendary (and much closer to ~1.6x at lower qualities).

So, yes, I think that Mithril Plate should be fairly carrying infinitely more Burden than shade (which any amount is, as current Shade has 0 Burden), for a mere 2x the PMI.

Presumably you meant Kevlar. But Uno's pointed out that you can assemble a Kevlar set that's really, really close to Plate set - for a fraction the B/I.

@kserox: Those look like my numbers, and I'm using Heavy.

Now you just look like an ignorant ass. Why would you compare Shade to non-protection plate, since no one would even touch anything else? With half burden mithril, plate armor would be in the 7-9 burden range, making a feather drop it to 0-2. So your change also puts plate without or minimal burden.
Now lets compare EHP between breastplates. Plate has a nice 16.59% PMI. Shade has 7.75% PMI and 7.5% evade, for 14.67% EHP. Even ignoring how much more unlikely it is to have a piece with 2 max rolls over one, nor that shade is less likely to drop, AND that evasion is less reliable, AND that when looking for death triggers, worst case rolls are likely, you still have worse defense. Clearly you gain damage and accuracy and maybe even crit, thats a given for T3 armor. What isn't clear is why you want T1 plate to be considerably better when Tenboro already stated that it was more popular than light armor.
As for Kevlar, it was hit with the double nerf of the protection spell no longer doubling, and the massive agility nerf that was light armor's specialty. The reason Kevlar is so cheap, is cause no one wants it. This also means there is less supply, no one turns in noodles for light, so there are less high end pieces of it. The last legendary Kevlar Protection piece I saw was the boots Evil Scorpio picked up a few months ago for 3M+. Still fairly expensive.

Now you just look like an ignorant ass. Why would you compare Shade to non-protection plate, since no one would even touch anything else? With half burden mithril, plate armor would be in the 7-9 burden range, making a feather drop it to 0-2. So your change also puts plate without or minimal burden.

Between a mithril plate and an agile shade, I'd pick the latter everytime...

Now if we're talking shielding power....High ADB, high crit, block that monster cannot counter, what's not to like? It sure is gonna cost millions too. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

20% burden reduction is fine for mithril. There has to be a good amount of burden on heavy. Low burden should be light advantage, not a heavy one.

You don't (intentionally) need to wear a shield for shielding plate&power?

This probably means that new Superior shielding plate with good rolls > old Mag, maybe L plate?

Well, 4everlost was so completely right about that mag plate then (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif).

Also, I'd like to point out that even infinite burden only nulls your crit and evade(which won't be particularly high from just stats which will now have lower AGI). Even then, plate doesn't have so much burden either. And let's not compare shielding power to agile/reinforced shade...I fear the latter will have worse specific mits than the first alone.

Now you just look like an ignorant ass. Why would you compare Shade to non-protection plate, since no one would even touch anything else? With half burden mithril, plate armor would be in the 7-9 burden range, making a feather drop it to 0-2. So your change also puts plate without or minimal burden.

Have I attacked you personally? I'm just pointing out that your comparison of the 2 armour types is missing several relevant factors.

Let me tell you how many pieces of Superior+ Protection Plate pieces I've had drop over the past 3 months. ONE. Compared to tens of Superior Fleet Shades. I've had more Shield and Power pieces drop than Plate. by a factor of magnitude. So yeah, maybe in general it is a T1 drop, but it sure doesn't work like that for me.

So yeah, I got a Magni Warding, and that's what I'm using, because I don't have a few million credits lying around for Legendary Protection.

Take a look at your vaunted Legendary Protection Plate in the wiki. The difference is still NOT 3x, but much closer to 2.2x - what of it?

It's a given that Featherweight Shards are entirely useless for Cloth armour wearers, and mostly useless for Light armour wearers. So what's your beef? Feathers used to drop B/I all the way down to ZERO for FOUR HOURS at a time - did you have a problem with that then too? I certainly don't hear Cloth armour mages whining that Featherweight Shards can drop Interference all the way down to 0 for Light armours.

And it's not as if all Plates will have discounted Burden, anyway - only Mithril ones. Which will be rare. Fact is, I'd much rather have Shielding Power, or even Mithril Power. Because Power has lower Burden to begin with, and my kill speed should be better than PMI to protect me.

As for worse defence, what about Resist? Is that chopped liver? Given the number of mobs out there with magical Specials now, the insane Resist numbers on Shade (not to mention profs) isn't exactly loose change, is it? Not to mention that you get 18%-25% Evade JUST from not having any Burden to worry about.

A monster needs only be level 1000 to unlock all chaos upgrades, which is pretty cheap.

That's only cheap to a few. Most of us can't afford that.

I just spent a few months getting the credits to get one of my monsters to 400. Which meant no training upgrades. I'll admit that I don't play a lot at a time, so someone who does would get credits faster. But most of us that aren't top-end players can't afford that.

Have I attacked you personally? I'm just pointing out that your comparison of the 2 armour types is missing several relevant factors.

Let me tell you how many pieces of Superior+ Protection Plate pieces I've had drop over the past 3 months. ONE. Compared to tens of Superior Fleet Shades. I've had more Shield and Power pieces drop than Plate. by a factor of magnitude. So yeah, maybe in general it is a T1 drop, but it sure doesn't work like that for me.

So yeah, I got a Magni Warding, and that's what I'm using, because I don't have a few million credits lying around for Legendary Protection.

Anecdote is not data. I've got something like a dozen Superior Plate X of Protection lying around from drops alone, and that was before Tenboro took Elemental mit plate out behind the barn and shot it. That said, Exquisite Protection (which should eat Mag Warding for breakfast) costs like 40-100k, depending on stats.

Take a look at your vaunted Legendary Protection Plate in the wiki. The difference is still NOT 3x, but much closer to 2.2x - what of it?

It's a given that Featherweight Shards are entirely useless for Cloth armour wearers, and mostly useless for Light armour wearers. So what's your beef? Feathers used to drop B/I all the way down to ZERO for FOUR HOURS at a time - did you have a problem with that then too? I certainly don't hear Cloth armour mages whining that Featherweight Shards can drop Interference all the way down to 0 for Light armours.

And it's not as if all Plates will have discounted Burden, anyway - only Mithril ones. Which will be rare. Fact is, I'd much rather have Shielding Power, or even Mithril Power. Because Power has lower Burden to begin with, and my kill speed should be better than PMI to protect me.

Nah. We've just gotten used to the idea that Shards were pretty much melee things except for Aether Shards, and waited for the Plate/Estoc nerfs to come. And they have.

As for worse defence, what about Resist? Is that chopped liver? Given the number of mobs out there with magical Specials now, the insane Resist numbers on Shade (not to mention profs) isn't exactly loose change, is it? Not to mention that you get 18%-25% Evade JUST from not having any Burden to worry about.

Anti-Resist says hi. I wish I could just pop in some Chaos tokens and nullify half of enemy resists too. Plate has objectively better protection than Shade, point blank. Whether that makes it better armor is up for debate, but it has objectively better protection.

Burden form under 75 to 94... losing so mutch crit rate sucks bad...

This post has been edited by chaos9: Feb 27 2013, 14:34

We've just gotten used to the idea that Shards were pretty much melee things except for Aether Shards, and waited for the Plate/Estoc nerfs to come. And they have.

Power/2H is still fine; in fact it now plays like mage, with a bit more tankiness and higher mana use. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/anime_cry.gif)

Anti-Resist says hi. I wish I could just pop in some Chaos tokens and nullify half of enemy resists too. Plate has objectively better protection than Shade, point blank. Whether that makes it better armor is up for debate, but it has objectively better protection.

You're forgetting that Damage is anti-mit. Brutality hurts Plate the same way Overpower does to Shade.

Shade has:

1. Attack Damage Bonus
2. ZERO Burden
3. Much, much lower Interference (in the case of Arcanist, practically nil)
4. Evade and Resist
5. Physical Crit if Shadowdancer
6. Physical Accuracy bonus

None of which Plate armour has. None.

And looking at the wiki rolls, non-Protection Plate compared to Shade has only ~2x the base PMI at Legendary (and much closer to ~1.6x at lower qualities).

So, yes, I think that Mithril Plate should be fairly carrying infinitely more Burden than shade (which any amount is, as current Shade has 0 Burden), for a mere 2x the PMI.

Presumably you meant Kevlar. But Uno's pointed out that you can assemble a Kevlar set that's really, really close to Plate set - for a fraction the B/I.

@kserox: Those look like my numbers, and I'm using Heavy.

OK. What you pointed is invalid because you compare between Medium and Heavy which have different tiers.

You compare Plate Armor (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) which is TIER 1 Heavy with SHADE ARMOR (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) which is TIER 3 Medium Armor.

If I want to complain, then

Leather Armor ( TIER 1 ) have low physical def and moderate magical def, and moderate burden and interference, no bonus atk and evade. Only resist a bit. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Compare it with POWER ARMOR ( TIER 3 ) which have REALLY HIGH Physical Atk bonus ( which can be maxed +200 patk ) and Physical Mitigation capped into 10% it could be different matter altogether.
And don't forget the burden actually quite low compared to leather. ( only interference quite high )

Don't forget shade doesn't have Physical Mitigation as high as Heavy ( especially Power Armor of Protection )

Don't forget shade doesn't have Physical Attack bonus as high as Power Armor of Slaughter or doesn't have Physical Defense bonus as high as Power Armor of Protection combined.

Since SHADE armor is Medium Armor Tier 3, it is safe that I'll compare it with POWER armor which is Heavy

Armor Tier 3, These will sum it up

Cloth armors gives the lowest physical/magical mitigation but also has no burden and interference. Cloth armor also increases Magic Accuracy and Evade Chance.
Light Armor

Light armors have moderate physical mitigation and low to moderate magical mitigation with moderate burden and interference. Light armors also increase Evade and Resist Chance.
Heavy Armor

Heavy armors have high physical mitigation and moderate magical mitigation with high burden and interference.

If I am to complain, I'd like a lot more with my current SHADE build which practically 'useless' without upgrading the levels of the equipment (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif) facing high-leveled monsters which can dodge and can't be dodged back (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

With AGI becomes 'not very useful' since there's no ACTION SPEED anymore and everything that AGI-ish is capped which practically impair Shade build. ( and Monsters now hit harder )

If you want to compare

COMPARE PLATE WITH LEATHER (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

NOT SHADE WITH PLATE of course it's different (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)


This post has been edited by Frostbite: Feb 27 2013, 15:21

ninja patched (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

(he removed it from the patch note as well)

Woohoo! Fuck having to hunt down shield armor

Anecdote is not data. I've got something like a dozen Superior Plate X of Protection lying around from drops alone, and that was before Tenboro took Elemental mit plate out behind the barn and shot it. That said, Exquisite Protection (which should eat Mag Warding for breakfast) costs like 40-100k, depending on stats.

Nor have I claimed that it was. But the Hodgkin's patient doesn't care how rare the data says his/her disease is for the general population; (s)he's got it. The drop rate may be a million Plate to one Shade for others, but it doesn't matter, not for me. That's because I'm a skinflint and prefer to wear my own drops.

But that's beside the point. I just wanted to say that regardless of what the official tier 1 drop rates are, Plate Protection isn't dropping for me.

Nah. We've just gotten used to the idea that Shards were pretty much melee things except for Aether Shards, and waited for the Plate/Estoc nerfs to come. And they have.

Right, so why complain about what a feather can do now, when it was 8 times more powerful in the past?

Anti-Resist says hi. I wish I could just pop in some Chaos tokens and nullify half of enemy resists too. Plate has objectively better protection than Shade, point blank. Whether that makes it better armor is up for debate, but it has objectively better protection.

Yeah, that would be nice. You know what else would be nice? Having Plate give ANY percentage of Resist. Which. It. Doesn't. Anti-Resist or no, Shade still objectively ups Resist by a measurable, significant amount.

Yes, Plate obviously has better PMI and other mitigation stats, generally speaking. Shade doesn't even have piercing, which sucks hard. But Arxdewn's original post claims that giving Mithril Plate 50% off Burden (as opposed to 20%) will make it as good as Shade except it has 3x PMI.

In order for him to make his point, he has to say that Mithril Protection Plate's OTHER stats (taking away PMI from both armour classes) are comparable to Shade's, once the 50% Burden reduction is taken into account. Newsflash: they're not. Plate's specific mits are higher, but so is its Burden and Interference. It lacks a large number of stats that Shade has. It carries a maximum of 4 PABs. Granted, END bonus is somewhat higher, and STR bonus is slightly better - but not by much.

Further, he has to drag in Featherweight Shards. But that would have been a far more legitimate complaint when Feathers killed ALL B/I. I mean, I always thought you should compare like with like; Feathers are *supposed* to make Heavy armour better to use.

And he's not even right about the 3x PMI! Even comparing Legendary to Legendary, the base PMIs' maximums are at best ~2.2x, not 3x.

Or to put it another way; he is basically saying that all things considered, and not counting PMI, Shade is currently better than Plate by exactly (the effect of reducing) 37.5% of Mithril Plate's burden.

If that truly is the case, then he should be complaining about Mithril armours as they stand.

And if he's saying that the other stats don't matter (and therefore Plate and Shade are essentially the same) as much as PMI does, then that is a complaint about game mechanics, not about the different armours as such.

@frostbite:

You compare Plate Armor which is TIER 1 Heavy with SHADE ARMOR which is TIER 3 Medium Armor.

No, Arxdewn did. His whole complaint was that a hypothetical Burden reduction will make a supposedly Tier 1 Heavy (Plate) armour comparable to a supposedly Tier 3 Light (Shade) armour.

Whatever the global drop rates are supposed to be now, I do know that Gossamers drop (for me) higher than Cotton. Well, when cotton drops, it's usually crap cotton, but still. I do know that Kevlar and Shade drop at better rates (for me) than Leather.

I've essentially given up with the tiers, because the RNG isn't working out that way for me.

People have been comparing Plate with Power (Tier 1 with Tier 3) forever. Power comes off worse (or it did, 2-3 patches ago). This patch, Shielding Power of Slaughter might be one of the best armour classes around, except it will be a pain to find Repurposed Actuators.

well... now...
light has 3 type : crap,kevlar,shade
cloth has 3 type : crap,gossamer,phase
but now only heavy has 2 type : plate, power

so... i think you should put something(crap) into heavy armor. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

RETURN OF CHAINMAIL

RETURN OF CHAINMAIL

Heh.. I was in fact thinking of it. But I wanted each subclass of armor to have some kind of strong point, and Chainmail was always just a worse version of Plate.