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> Possible future revamp

 
post Feb 17 2013, 07:08
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QUOTE(ChosenUno @ Feb 17 2013, 02:00) *

Just capping prof at my level with my staff reduces my damage by about 25%. And if you compensate the damage lost from prof through increasing EDB/MDB, you make katalox prof staves worse than even the old oak/willow.


I second that.

And more, it would be ridiculous if the revamp introduce a side effect of making new oak/willow on par or better than katalox because of the higher EDB.
Maybe remove the prof on oak/willow because they already has counter-resist.

BTW with mana cost reduction, [Absorb] should be nerfed or it might potentially gain MP on average.

This post has been edited by HTTP/308: Feb 17 2013, 07:13
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post Feb 17 2013, 11:00
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QUOTE(Bunker Buster @ Feb 17 2013, 01:40) *
So is OC tank going to be shitcanned? There's no point for it with such a change.


Yeah.

QUOTE(Bunker Buster @ Feb 17 2013, 01:40) *
As said before, the scaling for whatever replaces "straight up damage yo" has to be fair to actually achieve this.


But whatever is added to proficiency is NOT a replacement for "straight up damage yo". Whatever is added combined with the MMI decrease is that "replacement". Again. Patch as a whole.
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post Feb 17 2013, 11:02
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QUOTE(Tenboro @ Feb 14 2013, 22:30) *

- Removed proficiency damage modifier. Today this is a /200 factor increase.


umm... what about 4elemental mage that using Gossamer of the Elementalist Set ? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

This post has been edited by unknownxz.: Feb 17 2013, 13:56
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post Feb 17 2013, 11:33
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Um am I right to assume that when you said yeah in response you are going to get rid of OC tank? Cos if so that is a really big nerf. That would mean the amount of time I can go in spirit stance is cut to a third of what is was before. And with monster parry and evade, spirit stance wont even last a single round on IWBTH...
It will also mean that my options for using spirit stance are severely limited. As it is now with 280 OC I normally wait till it is full before activating spirit stance, but if I enter a round with some powerful monsters I will activate it before then. It gives me way more room to move with 280 OC than only having 100OC as the amount of time I will be stuck trying to get overcharge back over the 50% mark to use spirit stance will increase almost by a factor of 6.
So I really hope I have misunderstood.
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post Feb 17 2013, 12:00
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QUOTE(Tenboro @ Feb 17 2013, 17:00) *

But whatever is added to proficiency is NOT a replacement for "straight up damage yo". Whatever is added combined with the MMI decrease is that "replacement". Again. Patch as a whole.

He quotes [add value to +prof gear].
Value of +prof gears is irrelevant to MMI decrease.
It's all about comparing against other gears, like Katalox vs Oak/Willow, or +prof gear vs +EDB/MDB gear.

This post has been edited by HTTP/308: Feb 17 2013, 12:08
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post Feb 17 2013, 12:06
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QUOTE(Tenboro @ Feb 17 2013, 16:00) *

QUOTE(Bunker Buster @ Feb 17 2013, 07:40) *
So is OC tank going to be shitcanned? There's no point for it with such a change.


Yeah.


While high OC still have some use, like the need for 200 OC for the Rainbow Cannon (or whatever it's called), this removal of dmg bonus to skill would indeed lower the incentive (which is not much from the start) to upgrade the OC tanks— if it's not replaced by something else that is...

However, it doesn't have to be that way; here's some ideas :—

- Reduce or Remove some/all skills cooldown; OC now become the limiting factor on the skill usage instead.
- Increased the amount of maximum OC gained per tank; helps reduced the amount activation of SP mode.
- Higher OC would instead increased the strength and effectiveness of SP mode in some way for both mage and melee; there's so many way to do this it's not necessary for me to give an example.
- More skills to use ...? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
- ETC... Maybe. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)


To be honest... I have no idea why you would want to remove it at all; the current melee skills is so troublesome to use already— with no hotkey (important!) and so many rules, requirement, restrictions you had to take into account and all... It's the dmg bonus that gives the incentives to even use it instead of just hacking away (and the reason to upgrade the tanks) in the first place IMO, and AFAICT the dmg bonus doesn't seem to break the game in any way (right...?), so I'm really curious why... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

That said... Here's some other minor thought / concerns from me :

• The monster mit change sounded good. But I think that's only part of the solutions; there's still too little difference in the overall stats between weapons of all type, which IMO is one of the many reasons (some of which you already know, like monsters have to much PMI for instance) why there's so much emphasis on the weapon's proc instead of its stats...

• And on the magic prof change : How about instead of increase dmg; have it increase the effectiveness of the negative proc from the corresponds spell as well— in addition to reduce mana cost / reduce resist / whatever ...? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)


That's all for now. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


PS. I got 7k+ scores in FTL  (IMG:[bbs.pramool.com] http://bbs.pramool.com/webboard/pic/103.gif)

This post has been edited by buktore: Feb 17 2013, 12:30
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post Feb 17 2013, 12:58
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Overcharge won't be a percentage bar anymore, that's part of it. Most likely it'll just show up as a number of discrete charges.

QUOTE(buktore @ Feb 17 2013, 11:06) *
PS. I got 7k+ scores in FTL  (IMG:[bbs.pramool.com] http://bbs.pramool.com/webboard/pic/103.gif)


I played half a round of FTL the last couple of months. Probably should finish it one of these days.
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post Feb 17 2013, 13:03
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QUOTE(Tenboro @ Feb 17 2013, 12:58) *

Overcharge won't be a percentage bar anymore, that's part of it. Most likely it'll just show up as a number of discrete charges.

will spirit stance be removed?, how many charges will the new bar have? If spirit stance stays will I need to wait till enough charges to use it?
As it stands now sometimes I can have spirit stance last for 2 rounds if I get lots of parry evade or it can go for as long as ten rounds if I am really lucky.
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post Feb 17 2013, 13:38
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QUOTE(Tenboro @ Feb 17 2013, 17:58) *

Overcharge won't be a percentage bar anymore, that's part of it. Most likely it'll just show up as a number of discrete charges.


I'm eager to see how this will work out. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

QUOTE(Tenboro @ Feb 17 2013, 17:58) *

I played half a round of FTL the last couple of months. Probably should finish it one of these days.


I guess that explained your recent increase in productivity regarding HV and the site in general... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
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post Feb 17 2013, 13:54
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Wouldn't this kill proficiency gear altogether?

I think the idea to give it a different use other than the current "subpar damage increase" would be nice.. And your balancing makes sense. For prof gear that is.
But the same changes to mmi would be true for edb gear which would make it even more desirable. So why would anyone pick prof gear over edb gear then? It feels like there's a huge hole in this plan.

The way you describe it, it also seems you plan to make spells work like skills do. This will make changing styles quite the pain in the ass. But other than that I think it's okay. You'll have to include something to balance the rift between edb gear and prof gear though. Pehaps make proficiency also affect spell procs. For example increase the effects but also increase the damage for exploding effects. This could possibly make up for it.
You'd have mages that specialize in one magic and ones that go for the magic cycle. (fire -> cold -> wind -> elec -> fire or dark-> holy -> dark)

While you're at it - fixing how proficiency works. Please fix (or unfix) the way armor proficiency works. It's crap and I've hated it since you've introduced it. (Because it's wearing ALL [] or nothing.) I haven't given it much thought though. But an idea comes to mind. Give us equipment proficiency based on each equipment we're wearing (as before, but with different bonuses) and give equipment set bonuses through potencies. It could be a new rare potency that once unlocked will only work if you're wearing all [Light/Cloth/Heavy].

Not to mention.. this revamp would leave us with HUNDREDS of unspent Ability Points (especially if you also plan to get rid of OC tanks).. Do you have something new in mind? Because I hope the next thing will include an actual ability TREE which will also have choices we can make. The biggest fault with this game right now is that there's no choice involved. If you pour enough time/money in it you can unlock everything and do everything. The only thing you're left with is to improve your equipment bit by bit.

This post has been edited by Death Grunty: Feb 17 2013, 13:57
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post Feb 17 2013, 19:15
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Regarding dropping the damage-giving value of prof gear and changing MMI, along with having spells minimum and maximum reinforcing proficiency:

The latter will make higher minimum requirements for starting to mage for newbies. It is an interesting thought to use prof gear to unlock spells that otherwise would be outside level range though, but that's an aside that won't happen often because for most levels MMI change isn't all that drastic(I'm of the opinion that game balance should be focused between levels 100 and 300 as that is where most content is. Though not everything should be perfectly balanced, for then all choices will be same, and there's is only an illusion of choice just like with intended imbalance). The MMI change (and potential resistance/MMI-decreasing effects of prof)will result in streamlining MOB strength. This does mean that player-shattering outliers will be easier to kill for players that have reached that point in their gear so at the levels where Daemon Duality is good investment will not be forced to imperil.

Of course, compared to the players who wear crude to superior gear like you'd expect most starting mages to they are beyond the impossible - as is expected when a hundreth of their investment is still ten times more than the value of the gear. But conversely, if the average mob becomes stronger, the minimum power required to mage will rise much higher. This, combined with the prof requirements raising the barrier, means that most mage gear dropped will become bazaar food, the gear worthy enough will become far more valuable - raising the barrier further and because of that becoming a mage isn't something that can be done in 2 days, nay, a week anymore. With the low gini index on mage gear, gossamer will further drop. Not to mention the possibility that new mages reach levels where they need stronger equipment to do well on normal before they reach the levels where they will have sufficient wealth-gathering prowess to get said equipment, which would result in large influx of melee players - and their melee sets will perform better than mage sets until they're at the point where the mage set receives fair portion of the power from forging - and money spent on that could be further spent empowering melee set, resulting in the new situation that only best melees at the point where forging has lost most of the benefit can get better results from normal maging than meleeing. Already less than valuable gossamer would lose even more value in such situation because it will only be used to get enough prof to cast spells to grind prof for vast majority of the players who are so rich to build up a secondary forged-up set as they're not rich enough to sacrifice damage for CR.

Alternatively, assuming the bonus from prof is enough to surpass streamlined mobs for most mages it is entirely possible that new wealthy mages will outdo current melee at median difficulties.

@Death Grunty: Well, people actually have to make choices in the tree under the levels where they have completed the game. But yeah, by the time one reaches 250 and has +10 to all from shrine with +50 from AP training they can melee and mage quite effectively. Not perfect, there's still a loss ofc, but the sacrifice isn't crippling.

Whether this was intended, I do not know.

@HTTP: You're correct, but as Katalox of destruction can support both holy and dark effectively there's the argument that individual focus for element should be superior than 2 focuses - I looked at new oak numbers and it is definitely superior to new redwood, without accounting for CR. As for what chosen said: when it comes to holy, with exmax stats at 250 and +10 shrine/+16 aura/+38 from stat distribution you get results that have gossamer superior to phase only in the case of oak's feet(a 0.03% advantage) - in all other cases it is a loss. However, if given oak has naturally low prof rolls it indeed follows that bigger slot than just shoes will have advantage. Anyhow, oak still loses to katalox, but not cripplingly, just need oak that is a half tier above 'loxie.

@discrete OC:
That has pretty styling possibilities with opacity (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif). But stancing will stand supreme.

@boosting spell debuffs instead of damage: Cute but those boosts have to be pretty darn significant - comparable with standard debuffs, even - because a monsters that was debuffed by spell is alive to strike back. But if done this will make high-difficulty maging and elemental maging easier while weakening low-difficulty maging. As it it it takes some very significant investment and no small amount of practice/skill to reach the point where upping difficulty above 'normal' is good decision.

@low tier spells having double speed: Yay. Can get one tier 1 spell off without being eaten alive. Which is significant change to now where you'll need double haste for that. Now look at all those agitated monsters!

Joking aside, this would be - even more, option to optimize like that with gossamer- would be welcome for more use of lower tier spells.

This post has been edited by Lement: Feb 17 2013, 19:16
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post Feb 17 2013, 19:22
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QUOTE(Lement @ Feb 17 2013, 17:15) *

@HTTP: You're correct, but as Katalox of destruction can support both holy and dark effectively there's the argument that individual focus for element should be superior than 2 focuses - I looked at new oak numbers and it is definitely superior to new redwood, without accounting for CR. As for what chosen said: when it comes to holy, with exmax stats at 250 and +10 shrine/+16 aura/+38 from stat distribution you get results that have gossamer superior to phase only in the case of oak's feet(a 0.03% advantage) - in all other cases it is a loss. However, if given oak has naturally low prof rolls it indeed follows that bigger slot than just shoes will have advantage. Anyhow, oak still loses to katalox, but not cripplingly, just need oak that is a half tier above 'loxie.


Lement here meant to specify that there would only be ONE piece of gossamer with the rest phase.
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post Feb 17 2013, 20:59
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It's like I'm wearing nothing at all(paper)!
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post Feb 17 2013, 21:05
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How about instead of Mana or Cast speed mages get defense for prof?
Some kind of Barrier (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
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post Feb 17 2013, 21:33
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50% damage reduction for 3 turns upon successful ether tap.

We should really have unarmed and naked prof for some type of monk build (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
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post Feb 17 2013, 21:36
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QUOTE(fishinsea @ Feb 17 2013, 21:33) *

50% damage reduction for 3 turns upon successful ether tap.

We should really have unarmed and naked prof for some type of monk build (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Just let us use Hokuto Shinken.
But it will require one Shirt per Battle (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
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post Feb 17 2013, 21:55
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QUOTE(Ichy @ Feb 17 2013, 14:36) *

Just let us use Hokuto Shinken.
But it will require one Shirt per Battle (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)


Shirt charges can replace OC tanks (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

I wonder what will happen to skills though, after OC is gone. There's an extra 90 ability points that would hopefully go into new stuff when ability tree revamps? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) Mace is already slow enough and I don't think the lower PMI will compensate for the reduced rending blow damage.
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post Feb 17 2013, 22:02
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maybe Skills get their place in the new Skill Tree. 5 points each where each one reduces Cooldown and increases power.
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post Feb 17 2013, 23:34
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QUOTE(Ichy @ Feb 17 2013, 20:02) *

maybe Skills get their place in the new Skill Tree. 5 points each where each one reduces Cooldown and increases power.


Back to where they are right now!
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post Feb 18 2013, 03:04
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QUOTE(Ichy @ Feb 18 2013, 02:05) *

How about instead of Mana or Cast speed mages get defense for prof?
Some kind of Barrier (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)


So basically a faster, squishier melee?? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)
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