[X] My Assistant

Alternatively the effect could be increasing cast speed.

I probably like this over casting cost (unless it's something like 1-2% decrease in casting speed per 100 prof. 5%-10% is better). Yes mana cost is more observable as skillchip said, but casting speed is way more beneficial to mages in terms of survivability.
One of the problems right now is that spells are just way too slow compared to custom monsters (especially those with high PL), thus we always get hit by every monsters left on the field at higher level. Even heavy melees won't get hit by every monsters. Mana cost reduction isn't that effective when the mana saved instead goes to casting curative spells.
This also benefit melees as they use their curative spells more and more, so they won't cast a cure and get hit by everyone on the field. They can already utilize spirit stance to lower their mana cost, so I doubt the other spells they use would also need further cost reduction.

Toggling spirit stance though, will get you hit by everything.

Toggling spirit stance though, will get you hit by everything.

Several times.

I probably like this over casting cost (unless it's something like 1-2% decrease in casting speed per 100 prof. 5%-10% is better). Yes mana cost is more observable as skillchip said, but casting speed is way more beneficial to mages in terms of survivability.

The way it would work is most likely that the spells have both a natural proficiency, which would be the base of the bonus and minimum to use the spell at all, and a skillcap proficiency, where increasing proficiency further has no effect for that particular spell.

Inb4 every spell has a proficiency (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

The way it would work is most likely that the spells have both a natural proficiency, which would be the base of the bonus and minimum to use the spell at all, and a skillcap proficiency, where increasing proficiency further has no effect for that particular spell.

Poor lowlevels.

A.

The way it would work is most likely that the spells have both a natural proficiency, which would be the base of the bonus and minimum to use the spell at all, and a skillcap proficiency, where increasing proficiency further has no effect for that particular spell.

I would say that only the number/formula matters, or the below one would be difficult to fulfill

B.

- Added value to proficiency-increasing gear.

As staves naturally have a +6 prof or more, one proficiency-increasing cloth/staff is only another +6 prof.

OTOH:
1. now +6prof ~= +10% or more damage.
To add value to proficiency-increasing gear, +6prof should bring more benefit.
2. Even a complete counter-resist only delivers at most +25% damage.
With B alone, there is no room for prof-gear to deliver enough value.

So it indicates that A.'s cap should be really difficult to reach, or proficiency-increasing gears' value decrease once A.'s cap reached.
Another workaround, is apparently that make A's overflown prof falls back into +damage.

This post has been edited by HTTP/308: Feb 15 2013, 11:53

A.
I would say that only the number/formula matters, or the below one would be difficult to fulfill

B.
As staves naturally have a +6 prof or more, one proficiency-increasing cloth/staff is only another +6 prof.

OTOH:
1. now +6prof ~= +10% or more damage.
To add value to proficiency-increasing gear, +6prof should bring more benefit.
2. Even a complete counter-resist only delivers at most +25% damage.
With B alone, there is no room for prof-gear to deliver enough value.

So it indicates that A.'s cap should be really difficult to reach, or proficiency-increasing gears' value decrease once A.'s cap reached.
Another workaround, is apparently that make A's overflown prof falls back into +damage.

I don't get why tenbo wants gossamer to be better.

Recently I talked with skillchip and he said that oak/willow and gossamer is now ~95% potential of katalox and phase. Which is pretty good considering one is tier 2 and one is tier 3.

Not to mention currently with katalox of destro/heimdall it's best if you use 1-2 piece of gossamer ANYWAY.

Tenboro:
Interesting. So no real change in the long run, just to pull in new players with prof.

ChosenUno:
Really?
It is just kind of hard to believe, as I use ebony of surtr +phase, so I'd expect to get at least some cases where gossamer is superior in magescore, 5% is far below RNG's effects. And I check everything I run across, just ask MNP.

Or is that forged, assuming equal cost?

P.S: Do you mean I switched from staff to mace at 65 when in full kevlar for nothing?

HTTP:
Well, given how the average PL of monsters a maxed player faces is sth like 635(median probably even lower), it is rather optimistic. But it is sacrificing damage for consistency.

Also, I agree with andywong that t3 shouldn't be only option at high levels.

skillchip:
They will just get magneted then though.

Temchy:
While Chosen is correct, that wasn't my intention - I'd rather use BC or Illthid in such case. But he is correct.

Tenboro:
Interesting. So no real change in the long run, just to pull in new players with prof.

ChosenUno:
Really?
It is just kind of hard to believe, as I use ebony of surtr +phase, so I'd expect to get at least some cases where gossamer is superior in magescore, 5% is far below RNG's effects. And I check everything I run across, just ask MNP.

Or is that forged, assuming equal cost?

P.S: Do you mean I switched from staff to mace at 65 when in full kevlar for nothing?

HTTP:
Well, given how the average PL of monsters a maxed player faces is sth like 635(median probably even lower), it is rather optimistic. But it is sacrificing damage for consistency.

Also, I agree with andywong that t3 shouldn't be only option at high levels.

skillchip:
They will just get magneted then though.

Temchy:
While Chosen is correct, that wasn't my intention - I'd rather use BC or Illthid in such case. But he is correct.

That's assuming max forging. Before the gap used to be bigger, but with the new oaks the gap is much, much smaller.

Just for the record, suggestions, questions and discussion that is NOT relevant for these specific changes will be deleted. This isn't the "post stuff because TenB is reading it" thread.

with the counter resist, are you intending to give it some sort of upper cap because all chaos upgrades are available at lvl 1000, what sort of counter resist are you thinking of giving against monsters at that lvl and above. Are you intending that monsters that are much higher than that (eila) we will not be able to get counter resist against or just very limited?
with the option for spell speed reduction, the spells are too slow as it is so it would need to be a decent speed increase to make mage survivable, as any monsters left standing after the first cast at my level are hiting me, which if I am around round 150 in a IW on heroic or playing on a higher difficulty arena will usually result in spark proc if there are a few of the hard hitters in the pack. And I have over 500 agilty and xmage so I cant get faster cast right now.
I am unsure of just how much of an increase in speed would be needed, and I am unsure how it will work with speed cap as I believe monsters are speed capped as well as players, so if it cant get me 1 cast in before all the speed capped monsters rape me then its not going to make much difference. That being said it would probably be too OP if that was the case, perhaps getting rid of the speed cap and re working the action speed formula would be needed to make it fair.

The way it would work is most likely that the spells have both a natural proficiency, which would be the base of the bonus and minimum to use the spell at all, and a skillcap proficiency, where increasing proficiency further has no effect for that particular spell.

Will the spell proficiency still be capped at the players level?

- Removed skill damage bonus for higher than required overcharge.

Assuming the skill table and the overcharge consumption remain the same, there is really no reason to max out the 280 overcharge if there is no extra benefit.
How about adding a skill damage bonus for max overcharge? i.e.: more the skill points spent on overcharge, higher the skill damage.

Assuming the skill table and the overcharge consumption remain the same, there is really no reason to max out the 280 overcharge if there is no extra benefit.
How about adding a skill damage bonus for max overcharge? i.e.: more the skill points spent on overcharge, higher the skill damage.

. . . Which is just how it is now.

Can you consider also the effect of changing prof's effect on damage for mages who use prof staves?

Just capping prof at my level with my staff reduces my damage by about 25%. And if you compensate the damage lost from prof through increasing EDB/MDB, you make katalox prof staves worse than even the old oak/willow.

In addition, I don't think lowering/keeping mage damage the same as it is now is a good idea. To be honest I think mage damage should actually be buffed, since our defense is horrible due to chaos upgrades.

TL;DR I'm QQing because my heaven-sent staff will get shafted (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cry.gif)

. . . Which is just how it is now.

My english is bad so i cannot express my idea right (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cry.gif) .

Let me explain again.
Currently, the skill damage is affected by the amount of overcharge when the skill is used. We need to both maximize the overcharge boost and fill up the overcharge bar in fight (280/280) to get the highest damage.
Tenboro have stated that he want to remove this bonus which will make having too much overcharge boost no practical use but wasting skill points. (e.g. 2H only need 180 overcharge to use 3 skill in spirit mode so 50 skill points could be taken out from overcharge boost)

My suggestion is to add a skill damage bonus based on the skill point spent on overcharge boost. i.e. more skill point in overcharge boost give higher skill damage that independent of the current overcharge when the skill is use.

I want to discuss about how the PMI/MMI and proficiency damage change affect low and high level players but i don't know the exact formula for monster's stats level scaling so i'll throw some speculations here.

All i can see is:
- For melee: No damage from proficiency will reduce their damage by 25%. It may be a nerf for low level players (1-200) because monster's PMI is not much. It may be a buff for high level players (200+) and even a greater buff for very high level players using bleeding/stunning weapons.

- For mage: No damage from proficiency will reduce their damage depend on their levels (assuming they have max elemental proficiency).
+ Level 100: 33% damage reduce. Monster's MMI is low so it's a nerf for them.
+ Level 200: 50% damage reduce. Can't say it's a nerf or not because i don't have monster's MMI formula. To keep the damage, the monster's MMI must be reduced from 92% to 84% or from 80% to 60%.
+ Level 300: 60% damage reduce. To keep the damage, the monster's MMI must be reduced from 92% to 80% or from 80% to 50%.
+ Level 400: 66% damage reduce. To keep the damage, the monster's MMI must be reduced from 92% to 76% or from 80% to 40%.
The number may be higher if they use +prof staff.

I cannot say these changes will benefit mages or not but for melee, it's good.

All the above numbers i calculated from the formula on ehwiki. Correct me if i'm wrong.
http://ehwiki.org/wiki/Spell_Damage

This post has been edited by chamois: Feb 16 2013, 20:58

As the game scaled up, monsters can get base mitigations that are quite a bit higher than what was originally intended. This makes stuff that reduces this mitigation much more powerful than most everything else.

Furthermore, proficiency gear is still viewed mostly in terms of how much damage it adds. It would be nice to give it something else instead. Seeing as reducing mitigations outright would restore a certain facerolling aspect, combining this with a mitigation decrease makes sense.
Planned changes:

- Monster PMI/MMI formula changed to use player's formula, meaning it caps at 80% instead of 95%, and get there much later.

I thought you already did this. Guess I was wrong. Great job trolling Frith, by the way.

- Removed proficiency damage modifier. Today this is a /200 factor increase.

Again, great job trolling Frith.

- Removed skill damage bonus for higher than required overcharge.

So is OC tank going to be shitcanned? There's no point for it with such a change.

- Spells now have a required proficiency and player level. They are granted when you meet both conditions.

As long as they're automatically added to spell list, this is good. Having to spend ability points with such requirements is superfluous.

- Spells get a cost reduction and/or cast time decrease depending on how much higher your proficiency is compared to the spell's required proficiency.

woohoo low tier spells are king!!!!111111111 Unless this is "capped" at 50% action time (double speed) and high-level spells given a large boost to elemental vulnerability debuff chances and base spell damage coefficient, there wouldn't be much of a reason to use high level spells. Cost reduction would be a wash, because mages aren't at the point where it matters if their potions last one more fight.

- Having a proficiency higher than a monster's level will grant a counter-resist bonus for spells targeting it.

I hope this is something more substantial than "lol 1% counter-resist per 10 prof over enemy's" because counter-resist empirically translates to damage at a ratio of 1/3 (vs. full resist = 100/75 = 1.333x damage) and prof is weighted about the same as EDB. Insignficant scaling on counter-resist would be worthless, as 20% more damage from prof replaced with 20% counter-resist (which translates to up to 6.666% more damage) would always lose out to 20% more damage from an EDB suffix (which would be as low as 10% total damage depending on how good the mage gear is)

Ideally you should go for "proficiency twice the enemy's level = no spell resisted" which will also make proficiency scale well with lower-leveled players.

- Curse Weaving removed.

Should have made deprecating spells unresistable. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Assumed effects:

- Reduced reliance on armor piercing and imperil at higher levels: increase in damage output without debuffs, but decreased with armor-piercing debuffs.

As long as individual element and damagetype resistances are still 1:1 instead of logarithmic, AP and Imperil will still be incredibly valuable.

- Added value to proficiency-increasing gear.

As said before, the scaling for whatever replaces "straight up damage yo" has to be fair to actually achieve this.

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Feb 17 2013, 02:51

- Removed proficiency damage modifier. Today this is a /200 factor increase.

(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) I hope this one do not work on MELEE... In fact,the proficiency have poor bonus on MELEE.
The spell damage can get large damage by proficiency,but melee only get very limited bonus.


- Reduced reliance on armor piercing and imperil at higher levels: increase in damage output without debuffs, but decreased with armor-piercing debuffs.

(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) This means Mace and Scythe will be more useful?

-Alternatively the effect could be increasing cast speed.
(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Em...How about the MELEE？

- Spells get a cost reduction and/or cast time decrease depending on how much higher your proficiency is compared to the spell's required proficiency.
(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) I hope it also work on MELEE...


The tomorrow of HV is still a mystery...