[X] My Assistant

Is there anyone in the game who has managed to reach 95% MMI on a monster?

Depends on the level you're fighting at. A 25/25 monster at level 400 would have about 92% mit. With the player formula it would have about 60%. Which translates into a 5x increase in damage.

- Removed proficiency damage modifier. Today this is a /200 factor increase.

I like the concept of this change since it make the damage of magic from level^3 to level^2.

I have only play dark mage for a while so I may have misconception. The current game play for mage is that if the mage cannot kill most of the mob in the first hit, he/she have a very high chance SoL being triggered. And it is not only happening at high difficulty, but also happening at ~200 round grindfest in normal.

To make this idea work without killing all mage, there are only two ways IMO.
1) Increase the base damage of the spell carefully. How much should be increase need to be discussed. Low level mage would welcome this since it give them a much easier life.
and/or
2) Reduce the monsters attack power by a lot, at least to the level that hourly encounter with 9 mobs cannot kill you when you cast reg 2 in the first turn.

This post has been edited by Colman: Feb 14 2013, 19:17

Depends on the level you're fighting at. A 25/25 monster at level 400 would have about 92% mit. With the player formula it would have about 60%. Which translates into a 5x increase in damage.

Okay.
What about the MMI from chaos tokens? Is that not factored in this as well?

- Monster PMI/MMI formula changed to use player's formula, meaning it caps at 80% instead of 95%, and get there much later.

Fine. Is their speed cap also in line with player's?

- Removed proficiency damage modifier. Today this is a /200 factor increase.

Please take into account deprecating spells (like Poison and Lifestream) that already do little more than "tickle" damage.

- Spells now have a required proficiency and player level. They are granted when you meet both conditions.

"Granted"? Not sure how that impacts the AP tree so no comment until this is clarified.

- Spells get a cost reduction depending on how much higher your proficiency is compared to the spell's required proficiency.

Either this has to be done very lightly or mana conservation will need a nerf. A mage using T1 spells with a good staff and enough regen might just effectively reach "infinite" mana.

- Having a proficiency higher than a monster's level will grant a counter-resist bonus for spells targeting it.

I take it this will need a cap at some point. Prof goes up indefinitely, monster resist does not.

- Curse Weaving removed.

Fine. Melee are the only ones who suffered.

- Reduced reliance on armor piercing and imperil at higher levels: increase in damage output without debuffs, but decreased with armor-piercing debuffs.

I doubt Estocs will go out of style but I can't comment further on melee.

- Added value to proficiency-increasing gear.

Doesn't do anything, EDB will be even better with the removal of prof contributing to damage.

Is there anyone in the game who has managed to reach 95% MMI on a monster?

I know 501st has all maxed chaos upgrades.

Depends on the level you're fighting at. A 25/25 monster at level 400 would have about 92% mit. With the player formula it would have about 60%. Which translates into a 5x increase in damage.

That assumption is a bit...odd though as it assumes 25/25, which most monsters don't have.

In fact, 20 WIS/END will give 82.5% mitigation, and 22 WIS/END will give 86.6% mitigation. That means we're going to deal about the same damage to 25/25 like elia 501, but dealing less damage to 20/20 (2 times) and 22/22 (3 times)? As you've said you've also planned to delay the growth of PMI/MMI for monsters (probably by changing the scale factor?), so I hope you'll take this in mind when you balance things.

Besides, that still won't make prof armor more useful.

- Removed skill damage bonus for higher than required overcharge.

This would affect frenzied blows more than anything. In fact, it would be a pretty big nerf for it (and it already is costly and slow to set up right). If you really are going to remove bonus damage please take this into account (maybe give frenzied blows more turns or damage). It's really one of the few things DW has going for it that makes it usable.

This post has been edited by T_Starrk: Feb 14 2013, 20:11

The question is :
We see mage's new prof effect doing something now.
but didn't see melee's.

maybe going skill's bonus dmg?

If keep the dmg/def balance,niten and dw's skill damage maybe should be a new formula.

- Removed skill damage bonus for higher than required overcharge.

Assuming the ability tree isn't getting changed this would be a change resulting in less need for the overcharge boost, with spirit stance one would stop at 206% overcharge so the DW chain can be done in spirit mode. This frees up around 37 ability points if you have it maxed now.
Perhaps toying around with the cooldowns on the skills is the way to look if this is getting changed.
For example, if you clear the chain great cleave, rending blow and shattering strike after another, give an extra usage of any of the 3 skills with added damage? And add an cooldown if you fail to clear the chain, although this would affect lower leveled people since they wouldn't be able to complete the chain.

- Spells now have a required proficiency and player level. They are granted when you meet both conditions.

So a melee that barely uses supportive will unlock regen/regen 2 once he casted enough cures instead through the ability tree? Feels like alot of new melees will get shafted if that's the case.
If you remove the player level or adjust it in such a way, it could be used so that players wear prof gear to get the prof required for a certain spell.

- Spells get a cost reduction depending on how much higher your proficiency is compared to the spell's required proficiency.

This seems to encourage easy crude IW farming to max proficiency, which might not be the way you want to go. Although people still tend to do that.

- Curse Weaving removed.

This would make for less frustration on accidently missing silence due to curse weaving. But on the other hand I barely notice it with ~240 deprecating prof.

- Reduced reliance on armor piercing and imperil at higher levels: increase in damage output without debuffs, but decreased with armor-piercing debuffs.

Probally just the way that I read it, but it seems to say that when something is armor-pierced you do less damage, which probally is just silly on my part (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) .
This seems like a real decent way to go, but from one part I'd like to see tweaks to stun/bleed to adjust the overal estoc usage instead of pummeling estocs six feet under by making penetrated armor obsolete. The PMI change should affect the effectiveness of penetrated armor already.

What about the MMI from chaos tokens? Is that not factored in this as well?

A 20% multiplicative increase is an equal relative decrease in damage on both systems. l2math..

Either this has to be done very lightly or mana conservation will need a nerf. A mage using T1 spells with a good staff and enough regen might just effectively reach "infinite" mana.

Alternatively the effect could be increasing cast speed.

I take it this will need a cap at some point. Prof goes up indefinitely, monster resist does not.

Well, monster level goes up as proficiency does. It's basically a buff to proficiency equipment, just having proficiency = your level would do very little. But yeah, there would probably be some kind of cap.

That assumption is a bit...odd though as it assumes 25/25, which most monsters don't have.

The question was "did anyone reach 95% yet", so no, the assumption is not odd.

In fact, 20 WIS/END will give 82.5% mitigation, and 22 WIS/END will give 86.6% mitigation. That means we're going to deal about the same damage to 25/25 like elia 501, but dealing less damage to 20/20 (2 times) and 22/22 (3 times)? As you've said you've also planned to delay the growth of PMI/MMI for monsters (probably by changing the scale factor?), so I hope you'll take this in mind when you balance things.

Seems about right. The issue with the linear scaling is the large effect of those last few points.

Either this has to be done very lightly or mana conservation will need a nerf. A mage using T1 spells with a good staff and enough regen might just effectively reach "infinite" mana.

And that is OP how...? Melees already have access nigh-infinite mana with enough IA and regen with lesser SP drain than mage would have spamming t1s.

Colman: I see the 2nd as quite unlikely to happen....And 1st either rests on incorrect assumption or has poor wording; spells damage is just a multiplier on the score, +crit, multiplied by random factor and adjusted for mits.

rawrpies(regarding profs): Now imagine a level 150 dark mage restricted to poison spell for dealing dark damage due lacking deprecating. But on the other hand, it is a reason to use gossamer until one's own prof increases enough to catch up. Well, this would certainly give gossamer some value. Unfortunately, I don't think that value surpasses their already existing lows.

Anyhow, I'm bit worried about spells being prohibitively expensive to cast(and thus get prof in) past some level.

I also guess that this removes a major bonus point for the elemental mages, seeing as how now redwood of the elementalist seems best option for staff - there isn't much point in putting much money in forging that, after all, to compensate for the damage loss.

- Reduced reliance on armor piercing and imperil at higher levels: increase in damage output without debuffs, but decreased with armor-piercing debuffs.

As a DW rapier and 2H estoc user, I'm curious as to what this means. Will Penetrated Armor just not have as big of an effect as it does now? It was already nerfed with the Proc stacking thing, so this would be pretty bad for those weapons.

And I'll second that comment on Frenzied Blows. As the only AOE skill DW has, nerfing it, even indirectly, would be a pretty big blow to DW.

This post has been edited by Drksrpnt: Feb 14 2013, 22:14

Oh man this post is fun and awesome! I'll have to comment on it later tonight, not enough time before I have to go back to work!

And that is OP how...?

Mages are designed to have limits directly linked to their mana supply. A mage with endless mana is superior to a melee in every way except PMI.

Remember that the most popular way to farm for some things is in Normal GF wherein going for hundreds of rounds is preferred.

- Monster PMI/MMI formula changed to use player's formula, meaning it caps at 80% instead of 95%, and get there much later.

- Removed proficiency damage modifier. Today this is a /200 factor increase.

Looks good.

- Spells now have a required proficiency and player level. They are granted when you meet both conditions.

It seems to me that this will the mitigation change this will lead to an increase of damage only to the monsters who were close to max mitigation, maybe keep proficiency in the formula at a lower rate like /600.

- Spells get a cost reduction and/or cast time decrease depending on how much higher your proficiency is compared to the spell's required proficiency.

- Having a proficiency higher than a monster's level will grant a counter-resist bonus for spells targeting it.

Getting less resist would already increase mage's mana efficiency so i would go for better cast speed.

Assumed effects:

- Reduced reliance on armor piercing and imperil at higher levels: increase in damage output without debuffs, but decreased with armor-piercing debuffs.

- Added value to proficiency-increasing gear.

I'll feel a bit sad when i won't have to imperil monsters which made mage forced to take decisions while playing but the number of high level monsters appearing recently that need imperil were a bit mind-blowing.

I'd like to see better PABs and evade on gossamer.

This post has been edited by danixxx: Feb 14 2013, 23:02

- Spells now have a required proficiency and player level. They are granted when you meet both conditions.
- Spells get a cost reduction and/or cast time decrease depending on how much higher your proficiency is compared to the spell's required proficiency.

As someone who had near-zero offensive magic proficiency until level 250, I think I like this idea.

The latter should help when spamming spells to level up proficiencies, right?

Edit: Right.

This seems to encourage easy crude IW farming to max proficiency, which might not be the way you want to go. Although people still tend to do that.

This post has been edited by ctxl: Feb 14 2013, 23:12

Joe: Yeah, I'm aware. Here's how I imagine the comparison between 2 goes:

Melee with infinite mana supply: *Whack*smack*Whack*smack*whack*smack*
Mage with infinite mana supply with t1s: *cast*pichu~n*cast*pichu~n*cast*pichu~n*cast*out of spirit

T3s cannot oneshot everything now. T1s wouldn't be able to kill anything.

Melee with infinite mana supply: *Whack*smack*Whack*smack*whack*smack*
Mage with infinite mana supply with t1s: *cast*pichu~n*cast*pichu~n*cast*pichu~n*cast*out of spirit

So melee doesn't require spirit? You are not invincible as a melee. I run out of spirit all the time even when carrying spirit elixirs.

Yes, but you don't get sparked every turn, only to deal with skills and lolcrits. Mage, on the other hand, probably would if they tried to cast only t1s in typical gf round.

This post has been edited by Lement: Feb 14 2013, 23:35

- Removed skill damage bonus for higher than required overcharge.

For this, will you increase OC's cap and fix soul stone's effect?

- Monster PMI/MMI formula changed to use player's formula, meaning it caps at 80% instead of 95%, and get there much later.

Possibly change the stacking for PA/bleed slightly after this, like 50/100% PA and 0.5/1/1.5/2 or 1/2 for bleed. Depending on how the counter-resist/cast speed reduction works out, mages might get too far ahead in killing speed. Although I'm sure skillchip is just dying to do some calculations for this. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

- Removed skill damage bonus for higher than required overcharge.

Keep the bonus or decrease it slightly but make it based on max overcharge. If you just remove it, schoolgirl arenas become even less attractive as melee.

- Spells get a cost reduction and/or cast time decrease depending on how much higher your proficiency is compared to the spell's required proficiency.

Maybe cast time for offensive and cost reduction for supportive spells? That way both mages and melee benefit from this.

Melees already have access nigh-infinite mana with enough IA and regen with lesser SP drain than mage would have spamming t1s.

Yeah.. IA5, Gold Star, Rainbow Aura and fully sharded? Maybe. Hardly an investment. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)