[X] My Assistant

But whatever is added to proficiency is NOT a replacement for "straight up damage yo". Whatever is added combined with the MMI decrease is that "replacement". Again. Patch as a whole.

I'm talking about gear selection, here.

Prof's mechanic replacement must have at least half as much of a dramatic effect as EDB has, at least up until some point (if it's cappable, the strategy becomes whether prof or EDB becomes more efficient, much like the situation is today only there's a practical limit to one element).

The MMI change also affects EDB gear damage (ie. the damage boost is raised by the same amount) so it's really a constant instead of something that specifically affects prof's mechanic. If after the change, element X (in this case, prof) is 0.25x as effective as element Y (EDB), with element Z (MMI change) being 4x as good, Y*Z will still always be more efficient than X*Z, unless prof also affects MMI's mechanic. Ideally you want people selecting gear based on an efficient X*Y*Z result, with one element having a clamp (which would be prof) so the scaling doesn't go fucknuts.

The equipment piece with a boost for prof must be at some point as effective if not moreso than an equipment piece that has a boost to EDB given roughly equal quality. Let's use anti-resist as an example.

Hypothetically, if you were to make prof anti-resist, it's best to use an "as (prof - enemylevel) reaches (enemylevel) counter-resist scales from 0 to 100%" scale.
If a prof gear piece grants up to 25% anti-resist, that equals up to a 6.25% damage bonus, lower for most mobs without the chaos upgrade maxed.
If an EDB gear piece grants 12.5 more EDB, it will be potentially less effective than anti-resist if the player already has 200 EDB in that particular element in the remaining five pieces of equipment, and definitely less effective if the player has much moreso.

The effectiveness of prof being too low respective to EDB (such as say, making it so that you can't get at least 75% anti-resist *at all* even with an all-prof set) will render it irrelevant for gear selection, joining the ranks of unloved shield armor. That's not exactly what you want, unless it is, then you were probably not completely honest about wanting to make prof gear appealing.

You could also reduce EDB, but then you'd be slaughtering a sacred cow and you might as well make mage damage linear (EDB changed to "+ spell damage for element") instead of quadratic. Which I personally wouldn't be against, but you should increase mage survivability to compensate if you were to go in that direction.

ADDENDUM: anti-resist only goes up to 20, so the total benefit of anti-resist can scale up to 25% more damage (100/80 = 1.25) instead of 33%. sorry! numbers fixed.

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Feb 19 2013, 02:11

I'm talking about gear selection, here.

Prof's mechanic replacement must have at least half as much of a dramatic effect as EDB has, at least up until some point (if it's cappable, the strategy becomes whether prof or EDB becomes more efficient, much like the situation is today only there's a practical limit to one element).

The MMI change also affects EDB gear damage (ie. the damage boost is raised by the same amount) so it's really a constant instead of something that specifically affects prof's mechanic. If after the change, element X (in this case, prof) is 0.25x as effective as element Y (EDB), with element Z (MMI change) being 4x as good, Y*Z will still always be more efficient than X*Z, unless prof also affects MMI's mechanic. Ideally you want people selecting gear based on an efficient X*Y*Z result, with one element having a clamp (which would be prof) so the scaling doesn't go fucknuts.

The equipment piece with a boost for prof must be at some point as effective if not moreso than an equipment piece that has a boost to EDB given roughly equal quality.
If a prof gear piece grants up to 25% anti-resist, that equals up to a 8.333% damage bonus, lower for most mobs without the chaos upgrade maxed.
If an EDB gear piece grants 12.5 more EDB, it will be potentially less effective than anti-resist if the player already has 150 EDB in that particular element in the remaining five pieces of equipment, and definitely less effective if the player has much moreso.

Hypothetically, if you were to make prof anti-resist, it's best to use an "as (prof - enemylevel) reaches (enemylevel) counter-resist scales from 0 to 100%)" scale.

The effectiveness of prof being too low respective to EDB (such as say, making it so that you can't get at least 75% anti-resist *at all* even with an all-prof set) will render it irrelevant for gear selection, joining the ranks of unloved shield armor. That's not exactly what you want, unless it is, then you were probably not completely honest about wanting to make prof gear appealing.

Don't forget that prof gear is also of lower tier than phase, so naturally people'd assume we'd be going up the tier as you get stronger.

Tbh, I do not think anti-resist is enough. I have about 20 monsters without any chaos token upgrades that I face regularly. I know plenty of people who raise monsters and do not upgrade resist as well. What then?

If prof also gives you specific mitigation reductions, THEN it'll be more appealing. Say each 10 points of prof in an element reduces monsters' element resistance by 0.5%, additive, not multiplicative? Then you'll have the case where you'd have to make a decision. Would you rather have that straight up damage from phase's EDB, or would you rather get some extra prof from your gear to deal with those nasty mobs that take you forever to kill?

Or maybe it should start only if your prof is higher than your level? Every 10 points of prof above your level gives a 1% reduction + anti-resist.

This post has been edited by ChosenUno: Feb 18 2013, 04:04

Or maybe it should start only if your prof is higher than your level? Every 10 points of prof above your level

yeahhhhhhhhhhhh no. linear scaling is bad for stuff like defense reduction. you want something that works just as well with lower leveled players as higher leveled players because not only would it start out being less effective for lower leveled players, but the less dramatic change in the damage due to lower stats of lower leveled monsters compounds the suck for lower level players. hence the "as (currentprof - enemylevel) reaches (enemylevel) counter-resist scales from 0 to 100%" scale.

also update the quoted post

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Feb 18 2013, 04:10

What tenboro could do is make this SUPER complicated.

Make it so prof does:
Monster mit reduction
Monster resistance reduction
Anti-Resist

Thus making it better in some cases, worse in others.

Players will always try to do the usual min/maxing, in order to make themselves as powerful as possible. It wouldn't be a bad thing if they needed to mix in a piece or two of gossamer in order to maximize both their damage and minimize resists/mit.

This post has been edited by skillchip: Feb 18 2013, 04:15

It wouldn't be a bad thing if they needed to mix in a piece or two of ...

Welcome to Meleeland.

Yeah, i like my mixed melee sets, just wish i could mix heavy/light and get prof from both

Hope you'll have fun doing the same sort of thing with mage sets in the (not so) near future since now that Tenb is hell-bent on... 'complicating' the way of life of mages; just like he did to Melee some 400 days ago! (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

The current situation seems a lot more complicated (to Tenb) compared to that one though... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

@Bunker Buster: Well, even with a formula like that, 100% CR is less valuable at level 100 than 20% CR at level 300. But assuming 20% Resist is a bit much when average mob is around PL635, and resist can be purposefully left empty. Since resist can make even undeads survive holy spells with full HP, an average would be fine. A 10% resist average(not sure what actually is average) is probably closer to reality at max, but I think that for most levels monster survive more due resistance+HP than resist.

@buktore: Making gossamer tanky armor (and potentially cotton MC armor)? Not quite what is intended here...

This post has been edited by Lement: Feb 18 2013, 07:03

yeahhhhhhhhhhhh no. linear scaling is bad for stuff like defense reduction. you want something that works just as well with lower leveled players as higher leveled players because not only would it start out being less effective for lower leveled players, but the less dramatic change in the damage due to lower stats of lower leveled monsters compounds the suck for lower level players. hence the "as (currentprof - enemylevel) reaches (enemylevel) counter-resist scales from 0 to 100%" scale.

also update the quoted post

How so? Even with full legendary gossamer you'll probably only get like 500 prof over your level at most, which is only 50% elemental resistance decrease (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

For the majority, it'll only be 100-200 prof over level at most, which if every 10 prof reduces 0.5-1%, will reduce resistance by 5-10% at most. That's only a 20-40% increase in damage best case. Not that huge IMO, and I think kill shit faster is better than more defense.

I'll probably still have to imperil against Raging Hardon and Celestia with that damage increase (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

This brings back the suggestion someone else brought up either earlier in this thread or in the requests thread - improving the "armor set bonus", while making it easier to mix and match armor types.

As in, adding .01 to the prof boost received by a player wearing a full set of armor ([.02,.04] instead of [.01,.03]), while changing it so that each slot occupied by a specific type grants the one tenth of full set bonus - in effect doubling the benefit by moving from 4 cloth + 1 power/light to 5 cloth.

Also, another way to potentially make full sets more attractive while making mixes more viable would be to also change the way armor prof is awarded to mixed wearers - if they receive .01 prof, it goes to either their most common slot, or randomly to the tied two slots; .02 prof, goes equally to the two most common types, or else to the most common and randomly to the tied second pair; .03 prof, either .02 goes to the most common, or it gets split evenly between all three types.

It's an awkward compromise, but it also punishes players ever so slightly for not making up their minds, but doesn't completely crush low level players who haven't found enough equips to make a full set, or haven't decided on maging vs melee/haven't gone to the wiki/forums for advice.

Also also, because I like the idea of wearing power gauntlets and helmet, a shade breastplate, and phase pants and shoes. Ooh, or maybe a phase cap; power armor, gauntlets, and leggings; and shade boots. Because both are amusingly schizophrenic images.
... Gah. Since I just realized that this is a slightly complicated idea, here's a graph thingie!
2 types = {4+1 || 3+2}, Tie for 2nd = {3+1+1}, and Tie for 3rd 1st = {2+2+1}, and A is the first type, while B is the second (and C is the third if it exists).

And yes, I couldn't decide if I wanted to shaft the last proficiency or not for people using all three. Either or.
Also also also, I wouldn't mind if someone could figure out a better way to put my idea, or just tell me that I'm hoping for a sky pie I will never recieve.

This post has been edited by destructorspace: Feb 18 2013, 07:03

Well, having some mixed bonus is the only way melees will ever consider using gossamer of earth-walker. Don't think mages will be using that one though.

Well, having some mixed bonus is the only way melees will ever consider using gossamer of earth-walker. Don't think mages will be using that one though.

I don't know, I already use all Gossamer of Earth-Walker/Priestess when I melee, and it works fine.

I don't know, I already use all Gossamer of Earth-Walker/Priestess when I melee, and it works fine.

Can I ask which difficulty you're Earth-Walking your way through (presumably with a big honking Ethereal Mace)? Seems that if your first blows got double parried you'd be in a world of hurt.

@buktore: Making gossamer tanky armor (and potentially cotton MC armor)? Not quite what is intended here...

...     

Can I ask which difficulty you're Earth-Walking your way through (presumably with a big honking Ethereal Mace)? Seems that if your first blows got double parried you'd be in a world of hurt.

I can IWBTH hourlies and shorter arenas; that's the most I've tried. I know I can BT through any of the longer arenas if I have the patience for it and I don't get lazy with the debuffs.

I use shocking axe + either buckler or shocking dagger.

Probably not the fastest playstyle, but very safe.

---

Okay, getting a bit off topic, so my thoughts on OP - don't have much to add to what's already been discussed, but I hope Supportive and Deprecating proficiency will still raise the heal/damage of Regen/Poison as they do now.

Also, not sure if I like removal of overcharge bonus for skill damage. That bonus is one of the nice things going for 1H (Vital Strike), similar to what someone on an earlier page said about DW. Hopefully something can be added to offset this.

This post has been edited by Hitsuyou-H: Feb 18 2013, 10:44

Be nice if tenboro gave us some of his proposed formulas to play with/bitch about depending on the person who reads them

Yeah we need formulas. Without it we can guess new mage will be Op or unplayable (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

How so? Even with full legendary gossamer you'll probably only get like 500 prof over your level at most, which is only 50% elemental resistance decrease (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

For the majority, it'll only be 100-200 prof over level at most, which if every 10 prof reduces 0.5-1%, will reduce resistance by 5-10% at most. That's only a 20-40% increase in damage best case. Not that huge IMO, and I think kill shit faster is better than more defense.

I'll probably still have to imperil against Raging Hardon and Celestia with that damage increase (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

the thing with giving prof only one discrete benefit is to make the effectiveness linear, not quadratic or exponential. Otherwise we see Return Of Rating System Damage Exponent using different mechanics and that's just not funny.

(Mana cost reduction is irrelevant to current mage balance--the current mage game is "kill things fast enough and hope the RNG doesn't make them fire 3 spells in a row" which pretty much renders any stockpiling of any type of potion unreliable in Arena and post-50 round GF since you can lose them all in 10 rounds or they'll last until round 80+ because enemies don't fire off their magical skillspells that ignore resist because fucking everything is physical. Spirit is a much more valuable resource than mana for mages regardless at high level (190+) play. It's the melee that have to worry about mana since their damage intake doesn't pose do-or-die situations nearly as often. That said, mana cost reduction would be welcome because it would make Ether Theft more meaningful by way of making the mana more valuable.)

that, and your suggestion scales REALLY POORLY for level 50-150 players, who have a hell of a time dealing with enemies that have quadratically increasing damage outputs in comparison to their linear defenses (the only thing that equalizes this is Spirit Shield, which doesn't appear until level 190) I know this balance change mostly affects level 300 players, but it has to be done in a way that doesn't also severely negatively impact lower level players as well. As much as some people would like it to.

so it being scaled vs. enemy level as a ratio (ie. benefit of prof being prof-minus-enemylevel divided by enemylevel) instead of a linear numerical growth (like, say, 1 point per 10 prof) would be more fair, and it would avoid the problem of scaling going really out of whack the farther out from level 300 people go.

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Feb 18 2013, 16:55

the thing with giving prof only one discrete benefit is to make the effectiveness linear, not quadratic or exponential. Otherwise we see Return Of Rating System Damage Exponent using different mechanics and that's just not funny.

(Mana cost reduction is irrelevant to current mage balance--the current mage game is "kill things fast enough and hope the RNG doesn't make them fire 3 spells in a row" which pretty much renders any stockpiling of any type of potion unreliable in Arena and post-50 round GF since you can lose them all in 10 rounds or they'll last until round 80+ because enemies don't fire off their magical skillspells that ignore resist because fucking everything is physical. Spirit is a much more valuable resource than mana for mages regardless at high level (190+) play. It's the melee that have to worry about mana since their damage intake doesn't pose do-or-die situations nearly as often. That said, mana cost reduction would be welcome because it would make Ether Theft more meaningful by way of making the mana more valuable.)

that, and your suggestion scales REALLY POORLY for level 50-150 players, who have a hell of a time dealing with enemies that have quadratically increasing damage outputs in comparison to their linear defenses (the only thing that equalizes this is Spirit Shield, which doesn't appear until level 190) I know this balance change mostly affects level 300 players, but it has to be done in a way that doesn't also severely negatively impact lower level players as well. As much as some people would like it to.

so it being scaled vs. enemy level as a ratio (ie. benefit of prof being prof-minus-enemylevel divided by enemylevel) instead of a linear numerical growth (like, say, 1 point per 10 prof) would be more fair, and it would avoid the problem of scaling going really out of whack the farther out from level 300 people go.

To be honest with you I don't really see the problem of 50-150 scaling as being a problem. I feel maging at anything below 190 is a poor decision, due partly to the lack of SP shield but also due to the lack of APs. Maybe this will change with the AP changes but right now I can only say that.

In addition, if they're having a tough time with damage then lower the difficulty. Or spend more on gear.

Ether Theft in it current state is shifting the mana burden towards SP burden, which is problematic. Ether Tap is only worth it at 2x, and being able to get 2x on anything but schoolgirls is suicidal.

Also, if anything it shouldn't be exponential but logarithmic, no?

Just because it's a bad idea at that point of the game doesn't mean that it has to be that way forever. As well as it works (for nobody's benefit) it's not really interesting to have one playstyle be unequivocally better than the other at any point.

Also, if anything it shouldn't be exponential but logarithmic, no?

Defense should be. Attack stats should be linear, and if there's an exponential component then there should be a tradeoff, like there is now.

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Feb 18 2013, 18:29