[X] My Assistant

1-0.95=0.05....


1-0.95^5= 0.2262 or 22.6%

(1-0.95)^5=0.0000003125



1 - 0.95^5 writes out to 1 - 0.95 - 0.95 - 0.95 - 0.95 - 0.95

(1-0.95) ^ 5 writes out to be 1 - 0.95 = 0.05 | ^ 5 Aka: 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05 * 0.05



Reason being order of operations. PEMDAS. Parenthesis, Exponents, Multiplication/Division, Addition/Subtraction. (The / denotes things that are effectively the same. Division of y/x can be written as y *1/x where 1/x is a fraction . Subtraction of y - x can also be written y + -x . where + -x means plus negative x)


Also, you don't want to see how I do math normally. Let us just say when I'm doing math, I don't show my work cus I do it mentally and it looks completely odd written, so doing that problem it looks more like:

Build Start MathVarExecutable1

search needed functionality

variables = 4

var1 = 1
var2 = 0.95
var3 = 5
var4 = unset


set main

Function PowerConversion

//Function Multiplication

Function Subtraction

Function Output

end main


set PowerConversion

variables = 5

var5 = var2

Loop var3-1

Function Multiplication (var5, var2)

end Loop

end PowerConversion

set Multiplication

var5 = var5 * var2

end Multiplication

set Subtraction

var4 = var1 - var5

end Subtraction

set Output

SetModeVisualEnhance2=On

SetPosition1 = Up

SetPosition2 = Right

cout >> var4

end Output

End MathVarExecutable1

Run MathVarExecutable1


(See why I don't normally explain how I do things?)


^ For the person earlier that didn't do their math correctly (was planning to just edit but had a meeting while I was editing) ^


v My actual post v

Also, purely from experience, I have to agree that mages are harder to play well. For mages, you not only need mp for buffs/cures, but also to attack. Then you need a decent stat in dex to proc ET (which is now useless). Possibly even str in order to raise your physical mitigation and hp a bit as well as for when you run out of mp which will eventually happen. You are pretty much stuck with cloth armor because honestly, mp costs will kill you and generally cloth armor gets stat better for mages.

Mages are pretty much stuck with staffs if they want to go pure magic or else they have to hybrid somewhat (which isn't necessarily a bad thing seeing how it seems a lot of players started as melee then switch to magic). (I'm a pure mage but I'm a specialized build (thus why I got hit harder by the last 3-5 patches than a normal mage)).


For melee, your mp is pretty much going to be in buffs/cures. For stats, you can pretty much ignore int because you don't need the magic damage and you don't need the magic crit chance. Wisdom you need enough to give you some regular mp regeneration and mitigation. For ability points, you might end up spending more points, I'm not really a melee build so skill-wise I'm set up for magic.




My personal build (which I'd rather not reveal cus that is just asking to get a patch that specifically targets me) has a few advantages: longer runs if I don't get mp regeneration during the run, general survival ability (I rarely get one hit by anything less than 6 mobs even with the rare max crits (I usually survive with 100 hp even post patch)). Pre-patch, it was also very easy to prof things even without the proficiency training. Post-patch, it is still easy to prof everything BUT equipment. (It is now insanely hard to prof equipment because I do too much damage). Obviously the biggest con was that I couldn't melee. I was set up to miss often and deal low damage (which meant I hit almost every time but did low damage so it wasn't that bad). Now, just simply because of the rule of "Reversal" (It would be insanely hard to get myself to exactly 99%), I hit almost every time... For high damage....

This post has been edited by MikukoAya: Jan 23 2013, 04:14

No, my phone was being a total dick to me so i said screw it i'll just type what i can and then send it, also that is why I was quoting no-one. Go me!

Oh, okay. I was worried one of the few pretty okay guys around here got spirited away because you said Frith's na

*snip*

You might as well do, because tbh whatever you have in mind at lower levels usually don't work out well at higher levels.

And I still don't see why melees complain so much about this patch.

Sure, you get a dent in PMI. You think mages don't get that dent? We mages get hurt more from the PMI changes, because mages rely on PMI from stats way more than most melees do. And we don't complain.

Sure, estocs got nerfed, but hey, bleed got buffed. And now you have a damage buff from 2 things: PMI of monsters lowered, and extra elemental strikes. Having 3 strikes doing 1/2 of your damage is not a big buff? In addition, PA still reduces PMI, allowing your strikes to deal even more damage. How is that not a pretty big buff?

What do mages get? Nothing.

ET got nerfed, and mages gained nothing from this patch.

So... I don't really understand WTF you melees are complaining about. If anything, you're dealing MORE damage than the previous patch. Sure, survival takes a hit, but that's the price to pay for killing stuff faster.

So am I, I want a battlecaster estoc too (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

And to think, I got my Exq Eth BC Estoc a while ago and almost put it into my shop to get rid of it because I thought it was useless. Already got some butchers on it so maybe it's karma telling me to Max it out...if it gets Holy or Dark strike then it might just replace my Slaughter Estoc, despite a dmg difference of likely -200.

- JC

P.S. Still waiting for the update to make my Sword Chucks rule.

1-0.95=0.05....
1-0.95^5= 0.2262 or 22.6%

(1-0.95)^5=0.0000003125
order of operations. PEMDAS. Parenthesis, Exponents, Multiplication/Division, Addition/Subtraction. (The / denotes things that are effectively the same. Division of y/x can be written as y *1/x where 1/x is a fraction . Subtraction of y - x can also be written y + -x . where + -x means plus negative x)

^ For the person earlier that didn't do their math correctly (was planning to just edit but had a meeting while I was editing) ^

Okay, okay, I'm starting to see how this works. Had to play with the scientific calculator for a bit but now I get it.

but that's the price to pay for killing stuff faster.

I agree that bleed and dual-wield are killing faster, but estoc definitely got slowed down. The extra strikes on a single target are nice, but that doesn't nearly make up for the loss of reach. The fact that it only reaches 3 enemies to the left and right comes into play a lot in item world. Also the PA nerf doesn't let us kill nearly as fast. I'm not complaining, I was expecting estoc to get nerfed sooner or later, it was just too overpowered when compared to the other weapons.

Proc Stack Levels - Can there be a color change to the icon for each stack or a number added to the original icon to show how many stacks are currently there

So I'm going to keep this simple for now. Wall of text INC!!!!

Lets look at Scythe vs Estoc. Let us assume the ultimate, full legendary power slaughter or plate prot, best stats. Let us assume that we forge everything fully. Heck lets even give both Butcher! Finally let us assume we are level 300. For some reason the weapons are also Ethereal, which means Voidstrike/void damage on swing, and got Soulstrike before it was taken away.

Table: (power/plate) First number power, second number plate. (These numbers can be worked out using the ranges and other resources)
Non-Forge Scythe does 1.037x or 1.0557x more damage then Estoc
w/ Forge to all Scythe does 1.047x or 1.0778x more damage then Estoc
w/ Forging to only weapons Scythe does 1.057x or 1.0778x more damage then Estoc

So the damage is quite similar, with the Scythe coming out ahead, as is expected.

Now comes the issues.

First some assumptions: Monster has 14 STR/END, which scales to 420 and a bonus of 152.55, so a total of 572.6 STR/END, and translates to 41.7% mitigation (used to be 53.8%)
To keep the math simple, we will have the Estoc's damage be a baseline, which will make an unmitigated swing do 1x damage, or 1.
For simplicity lets just have the monster have 0% elemental mitigation to whatever strikes we may throw its way.
Also, to keep things easy, every swing = proc, not exactly true but since both estoc/scythe have same proc chance and crit chance it makes things simple.
Also to make this easier for me to type, we will use 1.05 as the multiplier between Scythe vs Estoc.

For this first case for every turn a player takes, the monster takes one (so it bleeds once per swing)

Part1
Estoc base case.
Swing1: (1-.417)*1= 0.583
Swing2: (1-.417*2/3)*1= 0.722
Swing3: (1-.417*1/3)*1= 0.861
Swing4: (1-.417*0/3)*1= 1.0
and 1.0 damage for every swing thereafter.

Scythe base case.
Swing1: (1-.417)*1.05= 0.612
Swing2: (1-.417)*1.05+0.4*.3*1.05= 0.738
Swing3: (1-.417)*1.05+0.8*.3*1.05= 0.864
Swing4: (1-.417)*1.05+1.2*.3*1.05= 0.990
Swing5: (1-.417)*1.05+1.6*.3*1.05= 1.116
Swing6: (1-.417)*1.05+2.0*.3*1.05= 1.242
and 1.242 per even turn after that

Scythe looks pretty promising doesn't it. 1.242x more damage then Estoc, on a single mob, and as long as the number of turns are even between the player and the monster.

It falls down to even with the Estoc around 64.76% mitigation, or when monsters have 1470 STR/END, or 55.95% mitigation and 20% from chaos, which means 1016 STR/END. Both cases will take quite some time for a normal player to see, level 350+ against most monsters, and those need insane stats.

The problem with scythe however is that the bleed doesn't proc every turn you attack, in most cases the monsters will be vastly slower then the player. That is because monster action speed is slowed down for every monster past the first in the round by about 9%. So with 9 monsters they attack 1.72x slower then normal, or in easier terms, the player gets 1.72x more actions then they would if they were soloing the monster individually. This is AMAZING for Estoc, but really puts a damper on the proc from bleed. I am still working to model monster action speed against the player, and then the chance for multiple monsters to have different levels of bleed/pa on them, but from running around swinging at things last patch, and how no one here is saying that bleed is amazing, Scythe looks to be inferior to Estoc still.

And no, I am not saying get rid of this mechanic, that would screw everyone.

Part2
Another thing that really helps Estoc more then Scythe is how much damage the strikes do.
Estoc Strikes.
Swing1: (1-.417)*1*0.5= 0.2915
Swing2: (1-.417*2/3)*1*0.5= 0.361
Swing3: (1-.417*1/3)*1*0.5= 0.4305
Swing4: (1-.417*0/3)*1*0.5= 0.5
and 0.5 damage for every swing thereafter.

Scythe Strikes
Swing1: (1-.417)*1.05*.5= 0.306
Swing2: (1-.417)*1.05*.5= 0.306
and 0.5 damage for every swing thereafter.

So Estoc strikes do 1.63x more damage then the Scythes.

Multiple that by 3 strikes, and the Estoc will be doing 2.5 damage against a single target mob, while the Scythe (with full proc bleed) will be doing 2.16. So Scythe falls from 1.242x damage then Estoc to 0.864x damage.

Part3
Ways to fix bleeders
1. Make all "Strikes" bypass physical mitigation, and only deal with specific mitigation, such as holy resistance. This will alleviate the difference between Estoc's Strikes and Bleeder Strikes, while buffing both.

2. Make bleed do damage as it Procs as well as on a per turn basis. This decreases the disadvantage Scythe has against large groups of mobs that go slower due to the way the mechanics are currently set up, while giving Scythes a way to do true-damage like Estoc is able to do against a fully Penetrated enemy with both its strikes and normal attacks.

3. Change the way bleed scales, bleed was actually nerfed in short rounds/lower difficulty because of the wind up it experiences, in lower difficulties most monsters will die before 5 stacks can be put up on a monster, and in higher difficulties why use bleed when it takes longer in practice then an Estoc? If anything I would have made PA take 5 procs to wind up, and bleed take 3, but that is just me. Maybe look at ratios like 100/125/150/175/200% or 67%/133%/200% for bleed. The cap might even need to be raised beyond 200%, like others have suggested, in order to make it work.

4. Add some sort of survivablity to bleeders, reduce damage done by monsters, make them miss more, make them avoid less, something along these or those lines.

When I get real numbers again for how things work against multiple mobs and the speed reductions and everything I will post them here, but this is what I have for now.

This post has been edited by skillchip: Jan 23 2013, 05:11

If anything I would have made PA take 5 procs to wind up, and bleed take 3

Ugh, I don't like this idea, mainly cause it would nerf my rapier even more. But I agree that scythe is now less useful at low difficulty and estoc still beats it at high difficulty.

Personally, I'm a scythe type. In PWI, I was the scythe wielding, Heavy Armor using cleric (Forget if that was the actual class name) who healed MORE than the robe clerics of my time and who tanked better than most of the actual tank class (the tiger thing) of my time.

I generally was never allowed into parties unless they were desperate for a healer, but the few that allowed me generally added me on their friends list as a primary healer. (I mean, when you can tank and heal, that always helps).


I've used that type of setup in pretty much every game I play. Get a scythe if it is available, then run around as a crazy healer who randomly goes mad and berserk kills everything in sight and who can tank in an emergency.

That healer that would always sit in town following people being like: Please get hurt for me <3 .

Yeah...


Even in HV, I kept that mentality. I've been slowly looking for scythes that I can use, heavy armor that I can use, and working on my ability to heal (and somewhat my ability to 'buff').


You know what would be awesome? Party arenas >.> Like have a party of 4. Of course, totally not possible since that would be huge server load since the browser would have to check for updates when it isn't your turn to act and you'd need a timer to skip a turn if the person doesn't act within a certain amount of time as well as a check to make it so that you can target your supportive spells (heal, regen, etc) as well as which player(s) each monster attacks... (without a timer, you could get stuck in battle due to some player not responding)





Anyways, I would like to see the scythes being more viable. They aren't horrible now but I take, on average, two turns for every turn the monsters of my level take. Sometimes four. (Which is why before if I was doing ET, I'd skip haste).


00 3 You evade the attack from Tomo Takino.
100 2 You .
100 1 You cast .
99 2 You .
99 1 You cast .
98 3 You .
98 2 You cast .
98 1 You gain 0.01 points of magic proficiency.


*Points. 3 turns right there.*


134 3 Tomo Takino misses the attack against you.
134 2 You .
134 1 You cast.
133 2 You .
133 1 You cast .
132 3 You .
132 2 You cast .
132 1 You .
131 3 You gain the effect Channeling.
131 2 You .
131 1 You cast .


*4 turns*

I'm pretty sure that most mobs would die before I could even proc bleed/poison a second time (6 to 8 turns?)

This post has been edited by MikukoAya: Jan 23 2013, 07:26

Proc Stack Levels - Can there be a color change to the icon for each stack or a number added to the original icon to show how many stacks are currently there

yes please, or little 1, 2, 3s etc, or something to indicate level of stack.

I just did the lvl 280 arena first time w/ my estoc, and it was really annoying to have to hover / re-hover my my mouse to check if PA was x3 yet so i could great cleave the not konata schoolgirls. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

This post has been edited by etothex: Jan 23 2013, 07:14

What do mages get? Nothing.

Isn't monster MMI lowered too ? I think my magic damage is higher after the patch and i can OHKO with dark spells easier.

Mages also get counter resist ? Sure it's small and insignificant but still a buff rather than a nerf.

Isn't monster MMI lowered too ? I think my magic damage is higher after the patch and i can OHKO with dark spells easier.

Mages also get counter resist ? Sure it's small and insignificant but still a buff rather than a nerf.

- Oak and Willow Staffs now drop with a smallish Counter-Resist bonus, and have also gained two elemental magic bonuses each.


Only a specific staff type gets counter resist... Yes, redwood staffs are now "more powerful" but...

Honestly, for mages that already had expensive staffs, they now need to buy+find new staffs because the old staffs don't get the bonuses, only new ones do.


Also kind of bad for us that were using priestess gear and the like (Stuff that boosts curative) since curative no longer exists in practicality. Also bad for us that can't afford new staffs if you think about it. Or for people (luckily I rarely buy gear) who just bought expensive staffs.


As ChosenUno said below, 10m on one staff just to buy another for this patch?


Especially when in all likelyhood it will be obsolete next patch?


I don't think I'd want to try that :S Especially given the low amount of benefit it would give me for the cost.



Also before you mention arcane blow as a buff, it deals less damage than magic missile, (it does about 25% of magic missile damage for me) probably has less hit rate than magic missile for mages, and in all honesty, the damage boost hurts me more than it helps. I would've rather just have had magic missile replace the melee staff hit to be honest.

This post has been edited by MikukoAya: Jan 23 2013, 08:29

Isn't monster MMI lowered too ? I think my magic damage is higher after the patch and i can OHKO with dark spells easier.

Mages also get counter resist ? Sure it's small and insignificant but still a buff rather than a nerf.

MMI is irrelevant. Currently as a mage if you're dedicated enough you can have enough damage that MMI really isn't much of an issue.

Besides, even though MMI from stats have dropped, MMI from chaos upgrades hasn't.

Counter-resist is a joke. Why? Because nobody uses it. And why's that? Again, if you're a dedicated mage, you won't be changing sticks anytime soon.

10% counter resist lowers the mob's resist chance by 2% MAXIMUM. When you consider that there are up to 9 mobs on the field, the effect becomes negligible.

In addition, as I said, most mages have already invested heavily into a staff. And counter resist cannot be applied onto existing staff. How's that a buff?

Would you, after investing 10 million credits in a staff, ditch it to spend another 10 million on a new staff that will give you negligible advantage? I sure as hell wouldn't.

MMI is irrelevant. Currently as a mage if you're dedicated enough you can have enough damage that MMI really isn't much of an issue.

Besides, even though MMI from stats have dropped, MMI from chaos upgrades hasn't.

For me, Kei is well over 80% MMI (or 90% PMI if you care).
BTW warding chaos upgrade is 20%.

This post has been edited by HTTP/308: Jan 23 2013, 09:17

For me, Kei is well over 80% MMI (or 90% PMI if you care).
BTW warding chaos upgrade is 20%.

shouldnt max PMI be 84%; since endurance maxes at 80%, then the max chaos 20%?

For me, Kei is well over 80% MMI (or 90% PMI if you care).
BTW warding chaos upgrade is 20%.

It is irrelevant mostly because we mages can't do nothing about it except imperil (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Not sure that monsters mitigation got the same formula than players, i take ~25% more damage in my mage set and +100% damage in my melee set that i didn't have time to finish before the patch. Monsters don't seem to have lost that much.

As for the new staves, can't really test it because oak is the only one that is decent, if i get a willow staff and fully upgrade it, i lose a lot of damage.

shouldnt max PMI be 84%; since endurance maxes at 80%, then the max chaos 20%?

It indicates that monsters' mitigation formula is unchanged, or changed but buffed in some other way (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)
(To have max PMI in new formula, END+STR/2 must >= 4800: that would be a lot more HP)

This post has been edited by HTTP/308: Jan 23 2013, 11:00

As for the new staves, can't really test it because oak is the only one that is decent, if i get a willow staff and fully upgrade it, i lose a lot of damage.

... don't understand what you mean, Oak does not have Destruction staff but Willow has?