[X] My Assistant

Since you're trying to make Ether Tap not suck so bad, can you do atleast do 2 of the 3 below?
1) increase the MP gained
2) increase the max Coalesced Mana chance to maybe 45 or 50%
3) allow Coalesced Mana to proc on more than 1 monster now.

Right now, that 2x thing is still a pain to do when you only have 3 turns to re-proc Coalesced Mana AND Ether Tap again.

Not to mention that every mob is raping you while you try. I don't care if Tenb wanted to make a change to ET, that's fine and it's not like it hasn't happened before, but this one as it is currently is a mistake.

Not to mention that every mob is raping you while you try. I don't care if Tenb wanted to make a change to ET, that's fine and it's not like it hasn't happened before, but this one as it is currently is a mistake.

One step in the right direction, 3 steps in the wrong direction (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

If he had left ET the way it was, but make it tick on OUR turn, that's already enough (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I'm currently testing this out in IWBTH DwD on the multiple schoolgirl rounds.
This new 2xET change doesn't make a difference.

Either I spend time vainly trying to re-proc that 2xET during which my support buffs steadily run out (which kills the point of trying to ET since you have to recast them anyway) or I run out of mana (faster). Only somebody who can spend 5 hours doing this crap can finish these now. With the double HP buff on schoolgirls and nerfed quality boosts even on IWBTH, there is just no point anymore.

- Ether Tap can now stack twice, and can now also re-proc while you have it.

In theory, we'll need to have multiple monsters with CM on in order to even have chance for ET to stack. And with the CM limit per spell (as far as I remember it's one CM per spell?) that's just impossible.

0.73.1

- Ability points from the Aura Slot upgrades can now be reset.

Do I have to reset it again if I reset it after the update yesterday?

Suggestion: ET will not consume CM.

Reason:
3T is too short to re-proc CM(35%) and ET(40%).
Probability to stack (assume hits are successful and no need to cure)
= .35*.4 + .35*.6*.4 + .65*.35*.6 = 36%

In theory, we'll need to have multiple monsters with CM on in order to even have chance for ET to stack. And with the CM limit per spell (as far as I remember it's one CM per spell?) that's just impossible.

If you are lucky, you can stack ET with one monster. Forget about it if your staff doesn't have max ET duration and chance though. And furthermore, even if you increase the CM limit per spell, it will be suicidal trying to stack ET during the middle of a round; and if you try doing it at the end of a round, you will probably also lose SP because you'll be dealing with more than one (probably aggravated) monster.

If you are lucky, you can stack ET with one monster. Forget about it if your staff doesn't have max ET duration and chance though. And furthermore, even if you increase the CM limit per spell, it will be suicidal trying to stack ET during the middle of a round; and if you try doing it at the end of a round, you will probably also lose SP because you'll be dealing with more than one (probably aggravated) monster.

And the actual chance to get ET to proc is abysmally low, due to evade and parry (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

0.73.1

- Skyward Sword, Vital Strike and Rending Blow now all inflict a maxed stack of their respective procs.

Mace un-nerfed. Good.

- Ether Tap can now stack twice, and can now also re-proc while you have it.

With a 2 turn staff, we've got something like a ~13% chance to reproc on a single mob (35% Staff, using an average since 40/50% staves aren't exactly common), even assuming it's tactically sane to do so. 3 turns gets the odds to more like 28% if I'm doing the math right (again assuming tactical sanity and solo mob). Don't much like those odds. Certainly not running the math on multiple mobs now (tired and cat wants attention) The cases of 2 and 3 schoolgirls may be relevant, but otherwise trying to reproc on multiple mobs is likely suicidal or just going to kill the mobs.

Quick Edit: ChosenUno reminds me that those numbers ignore Evade/Parry. So 13/28% is overly optimistic.

Keep improving ET. A few more steps and we'll be back to baseline. I'm liking linking the mana gained to Staff Prof (with what we get currently as baseline to add to).

- Reduced time per infusion for weapon enchantments to 15 minutes. As before, you can stack multiple enchantments to increase the time for longer battles.

Now I'm really hoping the drop rates for Infusions are using the old Infusion rates, not the old Shard rates, or I'll never be able to casually throw a half dozen Frost Infusions at an arena again.

This post has been edited by PK678353: Jan 21 2013, 14:08

A few weeks ago I took this build and went on IWBTH arenas. Result? I did not use 1 potion. Not a spirit pot, or a mana pot. I don't know about this patch, but hopefully that changes. And no I didn't spam focus to regain mana. I used Fus Ro Dah for shits and giggles (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

If I had not used fus ro dah, I probably would have used about 1-2 spirit pot per arena due to Spirit Stance. The mana pot count wouldn't change though, me thinks.

This comparison is really unfair (and you should be good enough to know it).

You're an endgame juggernaut with IA4 + Rainbow (that alone is 1400 haths), FRD and a weapon which does a gazillion damage, no wonder you'd rather use T1 Plate over a couple slaughter, it doesn't nearly add as much damage to your total damage as your weapon does.

If that wasn't enough, look at the bolded part. We're in 0.73.
Even leaving out all the changes to mitigations (which doesn't seem small stuff to me, according to HVStat my damage taken per round has gone up from 5071 to 7429), pre 0.73 all you had to do was to pop Featherweight and bring those B/I numbers down to 0, now it's 50 % at best (look at the burden on your weapon) - and you also need to have the money to buy them every time.

And don't get me wrong, as a Power user I love that change by Tenb.
The moment you take away all the downside of a particular armor (Power having the highest interference and normal/high burden) as you could with featherweight, you're making different "classes" play the same, at the same time simply giving the edge to those who can afford to full-enhance all of their pieces every time they enter battle.

0.73 addresses this, and it's a damn good change in my opinion (I still think Voidseeker gives too much accuracy, Balance get almost obsolete).

Parry is a non-issue for melees. So is evade. You're able to soak up the hits and your positive mana regen usually is enough to make up for the damage taken.

This is not true.

I'd give it to you if we were talking about 1H (counter parry), or even DW, but we're talking about 2H here.
2H is where parry really hurts the most, because monsters can 1) parry splashed Domino damage 2) parry your main strike, thus making Domino not splash and killing your DPS
Saying parry doesn't change anything to a melee is blatant nonsense. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

And please, don't give me the retarded "you just hold down a button" and "you'll soak hits" argument like you did in the other thread.
Neither of these two applies here since I have to actually manage my mana, spirit and overcharge (no Hath auras, no IA, no endgame forged Estoc which alone does 3.5x the damage of mine), and the only way to soak those hits is to use 5 times more godly mana pots and have SS+SoL up all the time.

Let me stress this: a game shouldn't be balanced exclusively around the 5 people who reached endgame, you need to strike some balance.

As for Evade: it's either Voidseeker (see above) or use Balance, because you won't a high enough accuracy (190 % accuracy seems to have solved my evade issues).
If you go for the latter, you're losing base damage Slaughter gives, and you said first (your previous post to Temchy) that you need the base damage.
And that's with the uber forged Estoc, try to imagine the damage a mid-level player is losing there (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Also, don't tell me you think it's right that tier 1 armor is better than tier 3, you know yourself that's wrong.

This is my only concern with the thing atm, I think 0.73 brings some good stuff which just needs the usual tweaking and tinkering.

If Power is crazy expensive to both upgrade and buy as it seems, it doesn't make much sense to have Plate be a much better alternative.

The simple fact that the guy above suggests mixing different pieces (why would a Heimdall mage mix Holy + Dark? Why would a light user do Kevlar + Shadowdancer?) really says how some adjustments might be in order.

This post has been edited by wr4st3r: Jan 21 2013, 14:12

This comparison is really unfair (and you should be good enough to know it).

You're an endgame juggernaut with IA4 + Rainbow (that alone is 1400 haths), FRD and a weapon which does a gazillion damage, no wonder you'd rather use T1 Plate over a couple slaughter, it doesn't nearly add as much damage to your total damage as your weapon does.

If that wasn't enough, look at the bolded part. We're in 0.73.
Even leaving out all the changes to mitigations (which doesn't seem small stuff to me, according to HVStat my damage taken per round has gone up from 5071 to 7429), pre 0.73 all you had to do was to pop Featherweight and bring those B/I numbers down to 0, now it's 50 % at best (look at the burden on your weapon) - and you also need to have the money to buy them every time.

And don't get me wrong, as a Power user I love that change by Tenb.
The moment you take away all the downside of a particular armor (Power having the highest interference and normal/high burden) as you could with featherweight, you're making different "classes" play the same, at the same time simply giving the edge to those who can afford to full-enhance all of their pieces every time they enter battle.

0.73 addresses this, and it's a damn good change in my opinion (I still think Voidseeker gives too much accuracy, Balance get almost obsolete).
This is not true.

I'd give it to you if we were talking about 1H (counter parry), or even DW, but we're talking about 2H here.
2H is where parry really hurts the most, because monsters can 1) parry splashed Domino damage 2) parry your main strike, thus making Domino not splash and killing your DPS
Saying parry doesn't change anything to a melee is blatant nonsense. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

And please, don't give me the retarded "you just hold down a button" and "you'll soak hits" argument like you did in the other thread.
Neither of these two applies here since I have to actually manage my mana, spirit and overcharge (no Hath auras, no IA, no endgame forged Estoc which alone does 3.5x the damage of mine), and the only way to soak those hits is to use 5 times more godly mana pots and have SS+SoL up all the time.

Let me stress this: a game shouldn't be balanced exclusively around the 5 people who reached endgame, you need to strike some balance.

As for Evade: it's either Voidseeker (see above) or use Balance, because you won't a high enough accuracy (190 % accuracy seems to have solved my evade issues).
If you go for the latter, you're losing base damage Slaughter gives, and you said first (your previous post to Temchy) that you need the base damage.
And that's with the uber forged Estoc, try to imagine the damage a mid-level player is losing there (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
This is my only concern with the thing atm, I think 0.73 brings some good stuff which just needs the usual tweaking and tinkering.

If Power is crazy expensive to both upgrade and buy as it seems, it doesn't make much sense to have Plate be a much better alternative.

The simple fact that the guy above suggests mixing different pieces (why would a Heimdall mage mix Holy + Dark? Why would a light user do Kevlar + Shadowdancer?) really says how some adjustments might be in order.

Well, I'm just saying that compared to pretty much every thing else in the game, heavies were having it really, really easy. Even without the estoc, I could just spend like 5 mil for plates and be invincible.

And I'm sorry, at around my level credits is quite easy to come by. You'll see. I'm still only a medium-sized fish in a smallish pond (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) .

What peeved me the most is how the responses from heavy melees seem like they expect to never die, and having to cure is a WTF to them. And they're saying that while playing BT and IWBTH (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Besides, plates are cheap, though I do expect them to go up in price soon. Estocs should come down in price in a few. I still think it's quite easy for a newbie to get a decent, very very usably set of IWBTH-capable heavy melee items, compared to mages who have to spend a fuckton just to be able to do BT.

This post has been edited by ChosenUno: Jan 21 2013, 14:27

Let me stress this: a game shouldn't be balanced exclusively around the 5 people who reached endgame, you need to strike some balance.

Personally, I'd say people who spent a longer time on this game deserve to have their voices heard more than the ones at a low level who'll probably stop playing within a few weeks or months.

Look at what happened to Ether Theft. Noobs complained and it ruined end-game Maging for the rest of us. I'm not saying they don't deserve to be heard, but I wouldn't trust them to make good balance suggestions either.

Yeah, Uno, looks like you're taking a beating here.

But fair's fair; it will take many of us (including myself) a great deal of time before we can do the kinds of things you've done to your equipment.

Having said that...

1. On any other difficulty other than IWBTH, at my level, the game is still playable and it is (within error) roughly as mindless (as a melee). I bottomed out all my pots, but still finished T&T on BT with a comfortable margin of HP/MP/SP. So I think on balance, it's not the-end-of-the-world bad.

2. On IWBTH, it's a fair amount harder. One factor is that 5012st (and whoever else is near there) is back in my mob list (where they would not be on BT), and they hit hard. I've kinda forgotten what it was like to have them around. Good training for when I go up a few levels and have to meet them at lower difficulties.

3. Losing the elemental mitigations (especially Elec) really hurt, and I didn't think it would. But, well, 72c and Magic the Gandhi, not to mention all the damned Sprites, have taught me otherwise. I will have to buy Ability Boosts to get them back. Oh well, at least I'll be ready to switch to mage afterwards.

4. Compared to mages, I happen to think Heavy armour users spend *much* more time Curing pre-patch. Mages pretty much rely on OHKO everything on the field, right? Because at higher rounds, if you let even one monster alive, he's gonna get you. So, I'm guessing you cure only after you spark, more or less. I would imagine a typical Cure scenario is something like Banish -> Mob hits you hard -> Spark -> Cure -> Ragnarok -> Next round. The fact that Heavy users can survive (since we're running SS on top of everything else) means we're curing pretty much after 2-3 mobs hit us hard. For us, it's something like Melee -> Mobs hit us hard -> HP near 20% zone -> Cure -> Mobs hit us with specials -> HP near 10% zone ->Cure -> Melee -> Mobs parry and hit us hard -> Spark -> Cure -> SS -> Great Cleave -> Rending Blow -> Next round. Now, with this new patch, it will be even more of the same. And now, each Cure costs more than it used to.

Whereas I thought the whole idea of Heavy (+ SS) was to be able to tank the hits, let Regen II take care of it, and just go on, under normal circumstances. Right now, that is not as feasible as it was in the past - I'm relying on avoidance as much as the mobs are, so that I *don't* take the hit in the first place.

Looks like I'll have to Forge my armours in order to have a real chance at IWBTH at higher levels.

0.73.1


- Ability points from the Aura Slot upgrades can now be reset.

I'm not showing the Aura Slot ability points on my ability tree (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Do we just reset and the three extra ability points are just there?

4. Compared to mages, I happen to think Heavy armour users spend *much* more time Curing pre-patch. Mages pretty much rely on OHKO everything on the field, right? Because at higher rounds, if you let even one monster alive, he's gonna get you. So, I'm guessing you cure only after you spark, more or less. I would imagine a typical Cure scenario is something like Banish -> Mob hits you hard -> Spark -> Cure -> Ragnarok -> Next round. The fact that Heavy users can survive (since we're running SS on top of everything else) means we're curing pretty much after 2-3 mobs hit us hard. For us, it's something like Melee -> Mobs hit us hard -> HP near 20% zone -> Cure -> Mobs hit us with specials -> HP near 10% zone ->Cure -> Melee -> Mobs parry and hit us hard -> Spark -> Cure -> SS -> Great Cleave -> Rending Blow -> Next round. Now, with this new patch, it will be even more of the same. And now, each Cure costs more than it used to.

(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Yeah, something tells me you haven't maged on a serious difficulty since before monster lab. It's actually far more like your melee scenario. OHKO the round hasn't existed since Chaos Upgrades except for the most insanely upgraded mages (we're going for most of it down first cast, and down to a few stragglers with the followup, but the RNG makes that fail often enough). I'll bet ChosenUno isn't going to one-shot Celestia Lindwurm on BT with Banish even with that setup. I've got the feeling there's a few Mechs that get cursed at occasionally too.

This post has been edited by PK678353: Jan 21 2013, 15:17

Yeah, Uno, looks like you're taking a beating here.

But fair's fair; it will take many of us (including myself) a great deal of time before we can do the kinds of things you've done to your equipment.

Having said that...

1. On any other difficulty other than IWBTH, at my level, the game is still playable and it is (within error) roughly as mindless (as a melee). I bottomed out all my pots, but still finished T&T on BT with a comfortable margin of HP/MP/SP. So I think on balance, it's not the-end-of-the-world bad.

2. On IWBTH, it's a fair amount harder. One factor is that 5012st (and whoever else is near there) is back in my mob list (where they would not be on BT), and they hit hard. I've kinda forgotten what it was like to have them around. Good training for when I go up a few levels and have to meet them at lower difficulties.

3. Losing the elemental mitigations (especially Elec) really hurt, and I didn't think it would. But, well, 72c and Magic the Gandhi, not to mention all the damned Sprites, have taught me otherwise. I will have to buy Ability Boosts to get them back. Oh well, at least I'll be ready to switch to mage afterwards.

4. Compared to mages, I happen to think Heavy armour users spend *much* more time Curing pre-patch. Mages pretty much rely on OHKO everything on the field, right? Because at higher rounds, if you let even one monster alive, he's gonna get you. So, I'm guessing you cure only after you spark, more or less. I would imagine a typical Cure scenario is something like Banish -> Mob hits you hard -> Spark -> Cure -> Ragnarok -> Next round. The fact that Heavy users can survive (since we're running SS on top of everything else) means we're curing pretty much after 2-3 mobs hit us hard. For us, it's something like Melee -> Mobs hit us hard -> HP near 20% zone -> Cure -> Mobs hit us with specials -> HP near 10% zone ->Cure -> Melee -> Mobs parry and hit us hard -> Spark -> Cure -> SS -> Great Cleave -> Rending Blow -> Next round. Now, with this new patch, it will be even more of the same. And now, each Cure costs more than it used to.

Whereas I thought the whole idea of Heavy (+ SS) was to be able to tank the hits, let Regen II take care of it, and just go on, under normal circumstances. Right now, that is not as feasible as it was in the past - I'm relying on avoidance as much as the mobs are, so that I *don't* take the hit in the first place.

Looks like I'll have to Forge my armours in order to have a real chance at IWBTH at higher levels.

Before this patch if you were a heavy user and you needed Spirit Shield something's wrong with you (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Pre-patch I ran with Haste protection and spark, that's it (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Yeah, something tells me you haven't maged on a serious difficulty since before monster lab. It's actually far more like your melee scenario. OHKO the round hasn't existed since Chaos Upgrades except for the most insanely upgraded mages (we're going for most of it down first cast, and down to a few stragglers with the followup, but the RNG makes that fail often enough). I'll bet ChosenUno isn't going to one-shot Celestia Lindwurm on BT with Banish even with that setup. I've got the feeling there's a few Mechs that get cursed at occasionally too.

Fuck that, I can't even OHKO Celestia or Raging Hardon on Normal (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

On anything above nightmare, I have to magnet AND imperil those bitches (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Before this patch if you were a heavy user and you needed Spirit Shield something's wrong with you (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Pre-patch I ran with Haste protection and spark, that's it (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Dude. Look at my level. Then look at your level. Pre-patch, I had all of 67% PMI. With your Heavy gear, you probably had ~80%. I have ONE Magni; the rest are Exquisites. You have to figure that I'm a skinflinted tightwad who hates spending credits on anything other than galleries. And even that seems to have become rather expensive these days.

Fuck that, I can't even OHKO Celestia or Raging Hardon on Normal (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

On anything above nightmare, I have to magnet AND imperil those bitches (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Yeah, well, I hear ya, 'cause it's not as if melee players have it easy with them either. I shudder to think what Labv2 is gonna be like...

Before this patch if you were a heavy user and you needed Spirit Shield something's wrong with you (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Pre-patch I ran with Haste protection and spark, that's it (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

And how exactly is spark that different from SS? As for preventing a oneshot from a Lindwurm spirit attack or similar I'd rather take the 20% sp dent than the 50% sp blow from spark. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

And how exactly is spark that different from SS? As for preventing a oneshot from a Lindwurm spirit attack or similar I'd rather take the 20% sp dent than the 50% sp blow from spark. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Sp shield is death by knife cuts. The chance of you getting sparked is close to 0 pre-patch, if you have the right amount of PMI. So SP shield actually wastes a lot of SP.

Meanwhile you'll get dented with your SP shield very very often.

This post has been edited by ChosenUno: Jan 21 2013, 16:59