[X] My Assistant

If this should be in Vigilante or someplace else, sorry. Please move it to where it's most adequate.

Hi,

I realize that I've got next to no forum presence, but I've been with e-hentai back when we still used Hentaikey and the old B&W click-the-page#-link-to-see-one-image-at-a-time gallery setup. I want to say that I really love the galleries and, honestly, have no use for other, less-interest-tagged sources of porn 99.9% of the time.

I'm saying this NOT to wave my oldfag-dick, but just to say that someone who loves the galleries, I don't want to offend or hurt any feelins about what I'd like to throw up here for discussion (and possible mod attention).
I feel that it's gotten to the point where I have to crawl out of the woodwork and make a plea.

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Recently, for the past several post-comiket upload rushes, there have been several Chinese upload first-responders within days of Boy's Day.
This has thankfully allowed us to fap to the uploads a fair amount of time sooner than the previous average waiting length of a month or more.

However, they are predominantly, if not always, in Chinese. And no raws are further uploaded unless by 2nd party uploaders.

This causes several problems:
1. Those of us that can understand Japanese (to whatever extent) but can't read Chinese, are left unable to read them. This causes problems for truthfully a small amount of users (I assume).

2. However, more importantly, this also stops translators from going from direct Japanese. From what I gather, some Korean translator/uploader groups are able to move off of the Chinese.
There are few if any from the Chinese to English.
The Chinese-translated and ONLY scans available until SOMEONE ELSE uploads raws keep even JP-Eng translators from uploading (as they have not workable source material short of finding ANOTHER translator).

3. While having some form of access to the original works, the Chinese uploaders are choosing deliberately NOT to upload the raws. While it can also be argued that it's to stop proliferation of the original works against the doujin-ka's will, the main part (the art) is already shared.
Today, in the upload of Erect Touch's C85 Kancolle doujinshi, the uploader has stated that,
"If you're from trans groups you can send us messages directly and I may be able to find raws for you (But NO guarantee, for many reasons)."
But has not deigned to say any.



I ask not out of spite, but out of honest desire for some sort of consensus, is there a line to draw for this behavior? The Chinese uploader(s) are honestly helping the community by uploading scans, but in doing so, also hurt it by preventing further translation until alternative scans are provided.

I ask that some sort of moderation is done. I don't believe or want it to be harsh, however, until reasons for this continual non-uploading of raws are provided, I ask (as a community member, not a demand) that upload rewards are partially withheld from CN uploaders that do not upload raws if they seem to have the ability to to begin with.
I do not in any manner wish to single them out when they are HELPING us, but I welcome discussion as to what can/cannot be done as to mediate this fairly and still get proper raw uploads.

This post has been edited by Person8: Jan 5 2014, 07:00

is there a line to draw for this behavior?

Nope. Any other questions?

Nope. Any other questions?

Yeah, no offense, but why?

I being too booty-bothered? I realize they went through the work of scanning (and translating) the works we want, but it also seems disingenous to also allow raws to be withheld for what I assume to be forced gallery-hits.

This post has been edited by Person8: Jan 5 2014, 07:07

Mostly because nothing we do would change a damn thing. The situation surrounding Chinese translations is completely independent of this site.

Mostly because nothing we do would change a damn thing. The situation surrounding Chinese translations is completely independent of this site.

That's what I was thinking about and why I throw it up (I don't want to lead a discussion in circles).

I don't know quite how to put this in more apt ways, but can they actually have some form of reprimand for this stuff? As part of the community, they're passive-aggressively making us to give them more credit than what's really deserved (not much more as they're the scanners/uploaders, but still more).

Perhaps I am expecting too much in the idea of justice, but this just seems plain damn wrong (yes, we're pirating the doujinshi already, but still).



Well, that's some input from somewhere at least (and on high? no less). Does anyone else have opinions on this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, but I admit that's because I just honestly want to read the doujinshi.
Also, anybody have any idea why they're NOT uploading raws? The fact that one of the Chinese uploadesr said "for many reasons" they may or may not be able to find the raws they were working with makes me ask what are these reasons. I may be more sympathetic if I actually knew they were valid.

This post has been edited by Person8: Jan 5 2014, 07:21

Already answered

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@salar "What is the reason for not uploading the Raw along with Chinese version ? do you enjoy scorning and angering people ?"

Here is one reason. If there are Japanese people on here, they get free doujins. Since the mangaka is in the Japanese language market (as opposed to any other languages too), if he/she wants to make money, he needs Japanese people to buy his Japanese language stuff...but the number of people buying will be reduced if Japanese people just come here to view it for free rather than buy it themselves.

I am sure me and others would like personally to use raws to translate things (even the people such as myself who can translate from the Chinese version would still prefer the originals). What would be good is if some English translation group made an agreement with a Chinese group that owns Japanese raws to receive raws directly from them via passworded mediafire or whatever site, and the English group cannot upload the actual raw, but can make a translation of it and post the translated version in the galleries.

Having non-Japanese translations online will not hurt the mangaka, since his market, the Japanese, want the Japanese language version. Most people (including Japanese) are not very content with just looking at pictures, but not knowing what is said (i.e A Japanese person on the galleries looking at the English translation...not good enough for them). And obviously no one would be stupid enough to translate a non-Japanese version INTO JAPANESE again.

So...there you go.
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And besides, you should understand what the JAPs has done to CH & KR in the previous war.
After that you'll never think of posting raws for the JAPs ever again.
Q.E.D

@salar "What is the reason for not uploading the Raw along with Chinese version ? do you enjoy scorning and angering people ?"

Here is one reason. If there are Japanese people on here, they get free doujins. Since the mangaka is in the Japanese language market (as opposed to any other languages too), if he/she wants to make money, he needs Japanese people to buy his Japanese language stuff...but the number of people buying will be reduced if Japanese people just come here to view it for free rather than buy it themselves.

I am sure me and others would like personally to use raws to translate things (even the people such as myself who can translate from the Chinese version would still prefer the originals). What would be good is if some English translation group made an agreement with a Chinese group that owns Japanese raws to receive raws directly from them via passworded mediafire or whatever site, and the English group cannot upload the actual raw, but can make a translation of it and post the translated version in the galleries.

Having non-Japanese translations online will not hurt the mangaka, since his market, the Japanese, want the Japanese language version. Most people (including Japanese) are not very content with just looking at pictures, but not knowing what is said (i.e A Japanese person on the galleries looking at the English translation...not good enough for them). And obviously no one would be stupid enough to translate a non-Japanese version INTO JAPANESE again.

That seems a moot point if the main thing the author wanted to keep from spreading (the art, and not the diologue) is already shared. Predominantly, JP lurkers would be like the rest of us and get their jollies off of the art, but just wait in non-trans limbo (like everybody else, lol).
Still not much impetus to pay for a doujinshi for diologue.
As well, they live there, and if they cared enough to buy it to begin with, they can with far less expense and effort than we outside of Japan can.

And besides, you should understand what the JAPs has done to CH & KR in the previous war.
After that you'll never think of posting raws for the JAPs ever again.
Q.E.D

OH U
I hope you're being facetious. Can't tell sarcasm on the internet. For the record, I'm not.

This post has been edited by Person8: Jan 5 2014, 07:34

And besides, you should understand what the JAPs has done to CH & KR in the previous war.
After that you'll never think of posting raws for the JAPs ever again.
Q.E.D

wat

Here's another reply I found that might answer your question.
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@salar's response to my comment:
There is a problem with your argument. You keep talking about people who want to support the artist, aka (devoted) fans of the artist. Yes, those people would buy it anyways, but what about the others who are not so devoted (aka. the majority) ? For example, imagine I am Japanese and I like ReDrop, but I'm not a very enthusiastic fan of him/her. I don't like him/her so much that I feel that I should actively support him/her and/or want to have a personal physical collection of his/her stuff. I hear that he/she was released something, and I also hear that it is uploaded on the galleries. As I said, I don't like him/her THAT MUCH, so I'll just look online. Why buy the doujin then, since as I said, I don't feel a need to support him/her or collect his/her stuff. However, if the galleries didn't exist, I would be more inclined to buy it, since no free alternative is available.

Here is another example. What if I like Avatar: the Last Airbender, but not enough to buy the DVDs of it? In that case, I'll just go download or stream the episodes online for free. I don't want to waste my money buying it. This hurts the creators. If I were a die-hard fan, I would buy them anyways. But I am not.
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@salar's responese to my response:
The chance of those people buying the book is not 50/50.
1) As you said, there is a possiblity that someone who isn't a fan will find the doujin and like it so much that they want to buy it. But do you seriously think that happens for the majority of people were non-fans that view the doujin? Imagine that the income I have disposable for doujins allows me to buy 25 doujins and I am not a fan of anyone (or I am only a fan of like 1~3 mangaka). Do you seriously think that I will find 25 doujins that, unexpectedly, I will like so much that I will buy it? You would say "No", right? Because you must realize that I can like something, but not SO MUCH that I feel I need an actual purchased copy. Then right there is loss for the mangakas whose doujins were not bought. And this is loss for multiple mangakas from one person. What about the [insert # of Japanese gallery viewers] that also viewed it, had the disponible income to buy it, but didn't?
Also, there is a sad reality in this world called "a budget constraint". You usually can't buy everything you want, so even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that enough non-fans (the majority of the online readers) of, see a ReDrop doujin that they like, and a Homunculus doujin, and a Coelacanth doujin, and a Meme50 doujin, etc, enough to actually go out and buy it, they are unable to get all of them. So they will be freeloading on the ones they can't buy (which is sad, as they are willing to buy it, but can't -- regardless, viewing it for free hurts the mangaka technically until they eventually buy it, if ever).

I'm not saying they'll go bankrupt, but it does hurt them and if you have any respect for the effort they put into their work (I mean for the (H-)manga/doujin writers/artists as a whole. Like, I hate NTR, so I have no respect for Nagare Ippon, but that is just one person. It is the whole body of mangakas we are dealing with here), especially the doujins of mangaka you are a fan of, then it would be better to ameliorate their losses (again, maybe making raw-transfer agreements with other groups for translation purposes). By the way, the "bringing into the fanbase argument" doesn't work if ALL OF THEIR STUFF IS ONLINE. A lot of official groups (like anime producers) put the first few episode online, but not ALL OF THEM.

And also, if we are speaking of "advertising", think about it like this. Japanese people could view the translations and see how the doujin is. If they like it, they will need to go actually buy it to get the full experience. Otherwise, if they don't buy, they get the watered-down experience of the picture but with no (complete) understanding of dialogue and, subsequently, the story. So everyone wins like that.

...I...think I responded to all of your points...hope I didn't miss anything...
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And yeah, forget the last thing that I said. B)
Just being ironic.
But some people really believe this is the true reason.

Let's go ahead and keep old war politics out of this.

@salar's responese to my response:
The chance of those people buying the book is not 50/50.
1) As you said, there is a possiblity that someone who isn't a fan will find the doujin and like it so much that they want to buy it. But do you seriously think that happens for the majority of people were non-fans that view the doujin? Imagine that the income I have disposable for doujins allows me to buy 25 doujins and I am not a fan of anyone (or I am only a fan of like 1~3 mangaka). Do you seriously think that I will find 25 doujins that, unexpectedly, I will like so much that I will buy it? You would say "No", right? Because you must realize that I can like something, but not SO MUCH that I feel I need an actual purchased copy. Then right there is loss for the mangakas whose doujins were not bought. And this is loss for multiple mangakas from one person. What about the [insert # of Japanese gallery viewers] that also viewed it, had the disponible income to buy it, but didn't?
Also, there is a sad reality in this world called "a budget constraint". You usually can't buy everything you want, so even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that enough non-fans (the majority of the online readers) of, see a ReDrop doujin that they like, and a Homunculus doujin, and a Coelacanth doujin, and a Meme50 doujin, etc, enough to actually go out and buy it, they are unable to get all of them. So they will be freeloading on the ones they can't buy (which is sad, as they are willing to buy it, but can't -- regardless, viewing it for free hurts the mangaka technically until they eventually buy it, if ever).

I'm not saying they'll go bankrupt, but it does hurt them and if you have any respect for the effort they put into their work (I mean for the (H-)manga/doujin writers/artists as a whole. Like, I hate NTR, so I have no respect for Nagare Ippon, but that is just one person. It is the whole body of mangakas we are dealing with here), especially the doujins of mangaka you are a fan of, then it would be better to ameliorate their losses (again, maybe making raw-transfer agreements with other groups for translation purposes). By the way, the "bringing into the fanbase argument" doesn't work if ALL OF THEIR STUFF IS ONLINE. A lot of official groups (like anime producers) put the first few episode online, but not ALL OF THEM.

And also, if we are speaking of "advertising", think about it like this. Japanese people could view the translations and see how the doujin is. If they like it, they will need to go actually buy it to get the full experience. Otherwise, if they don't buy, they get the watered-down experience of the picture but with no (complete) understanding of dialogue and, subsequently, the story. So everyone wins like that.

...I...think I responded to all of your points...hope I didn't miss anything...

In that case, it seems like less a case for assisting JP doujin sales, and more an argument for (heaven forbid) banning JP IPs or limiting their access to X number of images per period in the galleries to prevent their own pirating. To assist other pirates (ie. us and the Chinese uploaders) be pirates.
So we're still left with the the Chinese uploads preventing non-JP users who CAN read Japanese to either translate or self-read AND who cannot buy the doujinshi normally themselves due to prohibitive cost and proxy-work (I myself can maybe afford to do the entire process for 1-2 doujinshi every comiket, and that essentially makes the final price 10x its original price once the doujin makes its way into my hands).

No offense, but I'm not convinced yet that CN-only trans sitting around is quite the best way to prevent native-JP piracy. Almost pot-kettle-black there (I agree costs and buying/shipping maneuvering are prohibitive).

I'm not saying I believe you're wrong in the least; I just feel it's not the sort of reason that I believe is just for withholding raws when the scanning and, even harder, the translation is done and uploadable. I'm still on the side of some form of push for raws.

In any case, thanks for some sort of idiea on why the CN uploaders are doing this. For now I'll have to stop until I wake up tomorrow.

This post has been edited by Person8: Jan 5 2014, 07:55

I thought if these are the reasons that the uploaders won't upload the raws, won't it be just easy to ban all accesses from JP?
They aren't many Japanese uplaoders here anyway and this will clear all the problems.

You'd be surprised how many Japanese visitors/uploaders this site has, and it has being brought up before, it won't happen.

http://ehwiki.org/wiki/Statistics#Other_Notables

This post has been edited by erwtsnert: Jan 5 2014, 08:02

Simply speaking: even without e-hentai, there's still tons of ways for the Chinese to distribute their works. So quoting Maximum_Joe

Mostly because nothing we do would change a damn thing. The situation surrounding Chinese translations is completely independent of this site.

Yeah, I know there are a lot of JPuploaders, but I heard that many of them are just uploaders but not scanners.
The JPscanners happens to exist only in small communities boards and P2Ps(Ex. SHARE), and the uploaders just got their files from there　and reposted them here.
Doesn't that mean we foreigners can do the same thing?

It won't do for you to have ideas like that.
Do you think that there is not really a Japanese uploader?
I am not good at much English.
Do not expect the reply.

Yeah, I know there are a lot of JPuploaders, but I heard that many of them are just uploaders but not scanners.
The JPscanners happens to exist only in small communities boards and P2Ps(Ex. SHARE), and the uploaders just got their files from there　and reposted them here.
Doesn't that mean we foreigners can do the same thing?

It's just a matter of number.
Clearly there's more CNscanners, and the CNscanners don't want JPs fooling around their yard so I just thought it simply that it's easy just to exterminate the pests.

I know Mr.YouKnowWho said NO to this subject, but I couldn't resist suggesting.

It won't do for you to have ideas like that.
Do you think that there is not really a Japanese uploader?
I am not good at much English.
Do not expect the reply.

I'd like to see your numbers on that one, because it's not obvious when taking a look at a gallery which nationality the uploader has, even if a gallery has an uploader comment it's usually in English anyway.

Why would we specifically listen to the Chinese? It's not like they are the only ones keeping the site alive. Blocking off a group is just going to upset too many.

This post has been edited by erwtsnert: Jan 5 2014, 08:53

i'll probably sound like a dick, but this seems like the ultimate first world problem.

"i'm not getting free shit NOW and it doesn't come in the way i want it... ..."

And besides, you should understand what the JAPs has done to CH & KR in the previous war.
After that you'll never think of posting raws for the JAPs ever again.
Q.E.D

what?! (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/lurk.gif)

the ultimate first world problem.

^ this

A "chinese only" upload gives an interesting hint to a doujin that has been scanned but it's RAW is still not uploaded to the galleries. It prompts good leachers to search for the doujin in other places and, if found, upload it to the galleries. It's basically FREE* GP.

* costing them an "extensive search over the net".